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Incredibly well written post, Wheeze, ty. I agree and disagree with a lot of these points and obviously as you mentioned not all of this can (or should…) make it to a patch, however your perspective on Guards Armoured is hell of a lot better than most everyone else considering you are a chief proponent of Cromwell spam and a lot of these ideas, especially the airstrikes should maybe be considered.
This would be an excellent addition with our proposed RoF changes and give something unique for Panzergrenadier to have aside from slightly worse vehicles.
Personally I think it is a mistake to not mess with reload speeds – like I understand the historical accuracy PoV but of that doesn’t really work in a game like this. If reload speeds weren’t to be tweaked to give vehicles equal chance to fight each other then the only thing I could see to make it fair is a Spearhead like combat system of essentially dice rolls, random pen chance, random damage, random accuracy.
Would work fairly well as an alternative to making the Arado freely targetable, and would definitively help with getting through ‘hard’ defenses like tranches and whatnot which Luftwaffes current arsenal really cannot do at the moment. I believe Eisen is thinking something along the lines of a toned down He 111 strike from Spearhead if you would like to see an example, it works fairly well while still being something you can quite easily get out of the way of with softer squishy units. Its purpose is for destroying defenses.
I think these are good ideas I especially agree with maybe just outright improving their hard stats. The idea of having the officer available at the beginning too actually doesn’t sound too bad either, I’d honestly be in favour of that.
I assume you are referring to this;
“So I don’t know I’d love a compromise, Panzer IV J should maybe get its vet cap upped to 4 or 5 considering it is the only tank division that has an “upgrade” to make its armour worse.”
I just meant as in the tank is made worse, not the actual armour itself.
I think you misunderstand what I’m trying to say. Obviously the T34/85 should fare fairly well against the Panzer IV, as in real life they’re probably roughly equal. (not accounting for things like crew comfort or working gearboxes or having 2 hatches for 5 crew cough cough) It’s an 85mm: it should obviously have the capability to one shot a Panzer IV however it should NOT be able to do this “out of the box” if you will.
From a standpoint of fairness in order to even think about having a medium tank one shot another medium tank you should need vet 2 or 3 at the very least. This will at least give the poor SOB stuck with the Panzer IV a chance to at least reverse out of harms way and fix up the mangled remains of his poor little Panzer before the Ivan returns.
I think the main complain a lot of people have about the incendiary mortar strike is that it’s one of the few effective methods of reliably dislodging a MG or infantry squad from the slit trenches and other such defenses. I know Nick would agree with me in that regard. Grenades will only take off one model at best or deal a small amount of damage to squad HP but the only thing that works 100% of the time is the grenade bundle and the aforementioned incendiary mortar strike.
Aside from the point Nick is talking about i.e making the incendiary strike a little less available trenches should be a bit more susceptible to ordinary infantry attacks that you’d expect to work while obviously retaining the point of having a trench. (An advantage.)
Maybe making trenches a little more vulnerable to grenade attacks would go a long way to making players feel as if they don’t have to go all out and call in a mortar strike could make things a little bit better in that regard? I don’t know I’m an idiot and this could use more discussion.
I feel that brings us back to the tank HE damage debate. If tanks were more effective against infantry there wouldn’t be any “useless tanks” late game i.e the KV1, T34/76 and Panzer IV as soon as someone gets 85mm’s. Considering the fact they are under fire from 2x MG’s for all those vehicles at least infantry should honestly be chewed up much more than they are now by tanks. This would solve a decent amount of the problems you discussed, especially with the Churchill IV. There would certainly be more bang for buck if vehicles were more useful against infantry. If you want to see what I mean with “tank” MG’s not doing hardly anything go into a test map, spawn the Panhard with 1x MG and use it against an infantry squad in yellow cover. You may as well leave your PC on overnight cause they’re gonna be there a while.
What I think Nick is more trying to say is it isn’t a question of what the shells were designed to do, our how realistic it is. It simply isn’t fair the Soviet have access to a spammable tank that makes the Panzer IV (the mainstay of Panzergrenadier) instantly obsolete. Nick and I mostly play PvP and we have a lot of people who can attest to saying something along the lines of “well the enemy has 85mm’s, Panzer IV’s and StuG’s useless, get PaK40’s.” A vehicle that is the MBT of an entire doctrine (PzGren) and probably the best “heavier” vehicle for others (SS-Artillery) should not be instantly rendered useless as soon as some guy on the enemy team reaches the arbitrary number of CP’s to unlock the death machine. Everyone else has to put effort in to get it high vet enough to be able to OHK. They should have to get it to vet 2 just like everyone else.
Honestly wouldn’t mind a track shot on all the factions AT rifles, or even for the main AT guns (PaK 40, 6 lbr and ZiS 3) similarly to that other mod no one talks about. Currently things like the Jagdtiger and KT are very very hard to deal with without resorting to artillery spam and WP up the wazoo.
INB4 “just flank it lol”
Well this argument isn’t worth all that much but it seems that they are the values that are also used in War Thunder which seems to be the basis for most of the armor values in this mod. (specifically a pretty early version of WT) I’m not sure if this is true it’s just the conclusion I’ve drawn from word of mouth and the fact some of the values that are used (like 82mm accounting for slope max armor on the Panzer IV) are unique to said early version.
Regardless this is supposedly the reasoning behind the change in value: (Note this is speaking about the KwK 40 L/43 – 48 guns specifically but the table which I can’t figure out how to attach has the L/46 and L/70 listed so I assume this applies to all of them. So its very possible, seeing as WWII Ballistics is a more recent document, 2001, that it has calculated for these various errors. And I know its a logical fallacy to point this out, but I assume it’s been background checked to buggery seeing as plenty of games and other sources use it such as WT and RobZ mod for MOWAS. Anyhow please ask if you want to see any of the associated charts or any more background information. Thanks for putting up with my rambling.)
“I once thought this data originated at Aberdeen from US tests, but it appears not. The data closely matches British Ordnance Board graphs of German 75mm guns. The first appeared May 25, 1943 and were revised several times. (See British Criteria page 33) But, they apparently evolved to the present numbers. The ballistics of the gun were changed as well as the armor values. For example in 1943 the penetration at 2400 f/s was 121mm but in 1945 2400 f/s penetrates 132mm. I don’t know if this was all a result of normalizing the MQ target armor to US standards or changing the penetration criteria to be exactly like US NBL standards.”
Baraque de Fraiture
Testing by Gamecks (ßanzerßenadier), Eisen (Artillery maybe I dont know), Heiney (Cromwell spam) and Chris (Lit-Waffe)
This post is regarding PvP only.
While playing on the map we didn’t encounter any lag or stability problems, we made it well over an hour and ten minutes with no issue and then the game ended.
The map is pretty well balanced but there are some strategically placed buildings which allow you with just a few squads to dominate entire flanks of the map.
There were no visual bugs we saw.
Only typical COH2 bugs, nothing out of the ordinary.
There are no weird points, only territory, muni and fuel.
Some of the flanks are pretty hard to assault because it’s a pretty narrow approach but the centre is always viable to be attacked.
More than enough space to flank. We did have some issues with the point layout which allowed for our Luftwaffe player to call in the point neutralizing Arado strike and cut off points and just generally being irritating.
There aren’t any pickups.
It was a pretty fun map but the point layout is no the best as it sort of encourages stalemate if both teams capture the same amount of ground. (The teams both have a fuel and muni point thay are slightly closer to each other and pretty much guaranteed to capture without a decisive early game.) The map was a lot of fun and is very high quality and I think it would do just fine as a regular Wikinger map.
