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So as we all know, medium tank combat in Wikinger makes up a significant part of tier 3 and tier 4 combat. Together, Death Kitty and I did several tests to gather these statistics on most of the medium tanks in Wikinger. Keep in mind that most of the stats we gathered, especially in the quantifying department are approximations, notably our findings on tank RoF. We found tank RoF by taking averages of numbers we gathered by timing with stopwatches of the tanks in question. ALL STATS UNLESS NOTED ARE FROM VETERANCY LEVEL 0.
Cromwell : 5.6 second reload on both shell types.
Churchill : 5.5 (probably same as Cromwell) on both shell types.
Panzer IV : 6.9 seconds.
StuG III : 6.9 seconds.
Panther : 8.8 seconds.
Sherman 75mm : 5.4 seconds to 5.7 seconds.
Sherman 76mm : 5.4 seconds to 5.7 seconds.
T34/76 : 10.5 seconds
T34/85 : 8.8 seconds
KV1 @vet1 : 9.6 seconds
Now we have a bunch of numbers on a screen. That’s great… what can we gather from this? Well we did some testing on other things like APCBC for Cromwells and Churchills and he is what we gathered from that.
APCBC shots to kill list
Panzer IV – 2 shots
Panther – 3 shots
Tiger – 4 shots
Great, now that we have established that we can do some maths to make a theoretical 1v1 of a Cromwell vs Panther @vet 0
For this battle we will assume both tanks already fired and missed a shot and started loading at the exact same time. The Panther requires two shots to dispatch with the Cromwell and the Cromwell requires 3 shots of APCBC to dispatch with the Panther. Taking the reload time of these tanks multiplied by number of shots (this is NOT accounting for aim time as target acquisition across the board appears to be sub zero seconds) we can figure out which would win the battle, on paper at least.
Panther : 8.8 * 2 = 17.6s
Cromwell 5.6 * 3 = 16.8s
…Here we see a problem, despite the fact Panther should definitely be winning this battle, with APCBC which can penetrate a Panther most every time at most ranges, mathematically, just because of their reload time they will win the battle a lot of the time.
Keep in mind a Cromwell is 240 MP and 40 Fuel with price reduction… cheaper than many infantry squads. A Panzergrenadier squad with half track costs 360 MP and 25 fuel. FOR INFANTRY!
And we see this pattern a lot! Allied tanks, just because of sheer volume of fire will win most every engagement. APCBC for Cromwells and Churchills can EASILY service any target save for Jagdtigers.
So there are several things we can see that might assist these problems
1) Increasing RoF for German tanks, Panzer IV/StuG should drop to 5.7-6s and Panther to 6.5-7s.
2) Reducing damage on APCBC to be in line with all other APCR types, considering it is solid shot it is ridiculous that it can two shot medium tanks while APCR for most other vehicles like T34/76 need 3 shots.
3) Increasing RoF for the saddest tank in the game, T34/76. It is a two man turret, yes… but 10.5s is absurd; 8 seconds will still make it worse than most other tanks (as it should be) but at least make it less infuriating to watch.Obviously as I mentioned above everything here is approximate, we don’t have access to stats or anything so this is our best attempt at what we have, regardless of what the actual stats say we feel a lot of these proposed changes would be well suited to improving tank combat in Wikinger.
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im definitely for a APCBC nerf. i think maybe guards armored could be buffed in other ways too make up for it since it sorta depends on that thing too much, but in general, APCBC needs a gigantic smackdown with the nerf bat. if it did less DMG when loaded (like every other specialized AP Round in the mod!) it would be a lot more balanced imo.
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I am totally with Kitty here, why would you get fuel dump and fuel price reduction, when germans get no fuel dump at all.. kinda unfair. or at least dont decrease the price as much as it is atm. Stug shouldnt get a RoF buff imo, it can be camoed and has quiet decent chances of bouncing frontal shots. Panzer 4 needs vet 4 at least on panzergrens and maybe wunder (only cause it would make sense in terms of the doc but not necessarily in terms of balance).
Maybe nerf the RoF on 85s
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maybe the fuel dump could be nerfed in how much fuel it brings in. its 2x the cost of a normal cache, so i think something like 3x the cost of a normal cache (IIRC that would be 9 fuel per minute, which is half the ammount it brings in now which is 20. or well, close enough too half), too include the CP investment into it.
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Good post, thanks for the effort.
looks like 75mm APCBC is possibly over performing. I don’t have access to the mod values but we can certainly check for next balance patch.
We won’t be touching reload speeds as they are correct (afaik) and we want to give you a more realistic experience so prefer to balance through other means.
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Personally I think it is a mistake to not mess with reload speeds – like I understand the historical accuracy PoV but of that doesn’t really work in a game like this. If reload speeds weren’t to be tweaked to give vehicles equal chance to fight each other then the only thing I could see to make it fair is a Spearhead like combat system of essentially dice rolls, random pen chance, random damage, random accuracy.
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I have to agree with Gamecks here meat. You guys have made it clear that you do not want to rework armor and pen values, and we have accepted that. But at the moment, the panzer 4 suffers against cromwells and shermans, and the T-34-76 is useless (completely and utterly). Buffing the reload speed is a simple and elegant solution to both problems. Like seriously, a t-34 can get the first shot on a panzer 4, and still lose to the panzer because it has terrible pen, terrible damage if you use APCR, terrible armor, and its reload time means the panzer gets 2 shots off before the T-34 fires again. Its a completely terrible interaction.
The other solution would be to change the soviet tech structure completely: i.e. soviet tier goes something like: 0, 1, 2, 2.5, 4, with their 76mm vehicles hitting brutally fast, and their tier 4 getting more expensive. This would mess with tier 2 balance, which is not in an amazing spot at the moment, and I believe this is an instance where game play has to trump reality.
Soviets are in a pretty bad spot at the moment, and a lot of their strategy revolves around some pretty unpleasant builds just so they can barely survive until tier 4. The doc that does not have these strats, rifle guards, never sees play in my experience, and Russians are the least played army overall. I’ll make a post in the coming days.
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I agree, with Kitty and everything said here. Tier 3 axis tanks are practically useless against allied armor at times. I don’t think there should be a massive rework on armor or anything. Just slightly tweaked reloading, especially for APCBC. Getting rid of fuel decrease would also make fuel dumps a necessary item to get as well as the AVRE. At the moment allies can just rush 10-20 cromwells or shermans without any punishment when you kill them.
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