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I dont like that idea novo, as it does not solve the problem, and just delays it until it become a problem.
I like what you have suggested here. excellent framework. My only gripe is the panzerfaust for the gammon. (for the german weapons pack) I don’t think that needs to happen, as gammon’s can be a stun on demand, which is the buff I would suggest for them. fausts dont really fit with a long range squad (neither do gammons tbh, but at least those are british)
This seems disturbingly close to the arado coming back into the mod. Now if you want trench clearing, then perhaps we should discuss the buffed Leig? 2 Leig’s might be enough to allow luft to slowly force players out of such positions. I have tested it myself against the american pak 43, and it was annihilated almost immediately. It got buffed vs buildings, with less spread and more damage.
However: luft reinforcement costs are incredibly high. Perhaps they could be lowered to allow an easier transition o the leig? Anyway, I would say the new leig buff be tested before implementing a change of this magnitude.
Also, what if upon unlocking the rocket strafe, you stuka strafe was upgraded to have autocannons?
27/04/2020 at 2:48 pm in reply to: Making the Pack Howitzer and Leig-18 All Bite (instead of All Bark No Bite) #12556
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by Death_Kitty.
I think that pack howitzers could use some love, as Luft does not really have fortress reduction ability, and US airborne is going to need it soon. I would not mind a direct fire role that is effective against trenches and buildings. I also would not mind them acting better as artillery. The infantry support ability… maybe. Dunno, would have to test it out.
For the french captured vehicles, you have to use jedburg squads (first unlock of that tree) to build a FFI camp, or to turn an ambient building into as resistance HQ.
I’ll be broad with this one. Everything I have said about grenades is about all I can say on the topic. When I say you are fond of luftwaffe, I am not trying to use that against you, more of:
I think to myself: “I have none of these experiences when playing wikinger. Grenades, to me are a rewarding game mechanic that I enjoy both using, and don’t at all mind being at the receiving end of…Why are his experiences different than mine? Maybe it has to do with the fact we play different docs?”
I am also a luft player, it is my go-to doc when I play SS. So I was trying to approach the problem from that angle, as when I play luft, once I hit tier 1, grenades become a very minor issue for me, as I feel comfortable microing the various infantry squads, and avoiding grenades, letting the firepower do all the work. You have told me you are fond of luft, hence I am wondering what is different about the way we play it.
I don’t know you. I have not said a word about your gameplay, b/c I recognize, in addition to being patronizing, I have not seen you play enough to really gage your playstyle. I respond to your hypothetical scenarios with my own tactics/experiences.
I fume over the HMG bug b/c if grenade lose their pin HMG teams lose that vulnerability. If such a nerf would go through, there would no longer be an early game counter to a well-place MG team until mortars, and even then, mortars take time to solve the problem. If I got outplayed in tier 0, and my opponent is sitting on more/better points than I am, I am going to spend the game trying to break through a wall, and it is frustrating. It is one less item in my toolkit to break through an MG trench/bunker/building. I have to use tactics and strategy, while my opponent just has to face the weapons team the right way. removing pin from grenades would ruin this interaction, and that would bring about gamplay that would just infuriate me, and many other people.
Grenades are not cheese. They do take action to throw. Like I said, you can dodge grenades. You can throw grenades. They do not require any scouting. You can have squads pinned while your attention is elsewhere. You can pin squads while his attention is elsewhere.
“A nice tip but something I feel ultimately dwarfs the game play to for everyone, & revolves around cheese. Most cheese found in RTS games can be avoided by just not playing against someone who uses it, but when the game mechanic itself is cheese, how do I avoid players using it? You lessen the punishment of said mechanic, because it has no reason to be as strong as it is. Or you learn to adapt. And the issue I take here is, you only have 2 counters total, and if you don’t like how the counters work, fuck you that’s a part of the mod. See the issue?”
This. This the big difference between you and me. Have you ever played starcraft? Ever hear of the cannon rush?
Ill explain it real quick if you have not (skip if you know of this): protoss can build buildings anywhere, as long as it is in pylon range. In addition, protoss can unlock is main base defense, the photon cannon, with only one building, available at thee start of the game: the forge. So the whole point of the cannon rush is to rush a forge, build a pylon at your opponents base before he builds any unit, then kill him with, what should be, base defenses.
Unless you specifically send a worker… not a unit, a worker, to scout for the forge, you will lose, even in the cannon rush is executed sub-optimally. Once the strat starts, there is no counterplay. if you are not ready, you are done. OFC this generates salt to no end. And you know what? You learn to send the worker. And if it happens you learn to fight with workers, because you dont have units out yet. And rather than whine and nerf the forge to be teched into later, the strat remains. Because it is part of the game. Only 1 counter, and if you don’t want to do it, you can sod off.
Grenades are so much nicer than that, because once it happens, you can avoid it. and you can perform it right back. I can dodge as soon as the animation starts, sometimes even before (when all models come to a dead stop, I start moving out of the way, don’t even hit sprint). Sometimes, yes, a squad of mine gets pinned. But I pin his squads too. and so long as grenades are an equal opportunity weapon, I am fine with that. (SID nades are not, hence my issue with them)
So yeah, if you are expecting a perfect game… no, that isnt going to happen. But you can make sure that his game ain’t perfect either.06/04/2020 at 7:26 pm in reply to: Balance rant, AKA, getting out the nerf bat for PZ jager. #12298
Accurate. However, I cannot be relied upon to play for and against every single doc in the game. So I have relied upon the feedback of others. People I know you would consider reliable. The fact is the 76mm barrage is just too good, and in a PvP game, you do not have the resources to set up you 152mm howitzers and your 76mm howitzers. You are familiar with the 76 barrage. It destroys everything, on top of being very versatile.
And these can be hidden in your base, or emplaced; either way, they are much cheaper and less vulnerable than the 152 mm.
So, tl;dr. UK gets 2 base guns plus uncle, static gets nebel and karl, none of that is enough to run an arty doc (the base howitzers are just not enough bombardment, while the other 3 are on massive cooldowns), and USSR arty can hid 3 guns in their base.
In terms of AT capability, the doc is not that lacking.06/04/2020 at 6:50 pm in reply to: Balance rant, AKA, getting out the nerf bat for PZ jager. #12292
2.) Right now people playing soviet arty don’t build the 152 mm howitzer. No point. Just the B-4 and the 76mm, which are unlimited. Once you get 4-5 ZiS-76 (which are dirt cheap), you basically nuke everything. This is meant to encourage people to build those howitzers, which will still have that stun. Also, if USSR arty is the only doctrine that has to build its arty on the map, what do Canadian arty and SID do exactly? Also, lets not forget, the 76mm ZiS can just hide in the back of you base, which is what makes it infuriating, while the 152 mm actually has to be out on the map.
5.) I disagree, but fair enough.
6.) Perhaps, but at some point it will either remain annoying, or just have too little range. The best way to go about it is to make it cost something and be limited.
8.) The thing is, gammon bombs don’t have a reliable crit profile rn. I am hoping to give it one.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Death_Kitty.
FINALLY! A WORTHY OPPONENT! OUR BATTLE WILL BE LEGENDARY!
Memes aside, lets continue this. On a personal note, I do not find OP’s opinion to be personally offensive, but it does irritate me that OP cannot see the cascade of issues his proposal causes. I am trying to outline this to the best of my ability
So 2 points your brought up are this: Fuel being worth so much less that muni, and machine guns already being prevalent. Oh I completely agree with both points. But neither, I believe, are the issue of grenades. They are both separate issues:
- Fuel is worthless b/c it is very hard to feel fuel starved in the late game; there is simply so much of it. If call-ins were to cost fuel, and certain costs were converted from munitions to fuel at least in part (Like for example, the GA airstrikes from from 250 muni to 150 muni and 75 fuel) it would become a much more necessary resource, without which you would not be able to get your lategame units. That is not the case right now, and I agree with OP; that is an issue. But not one nerfing grenades would fix.
- LMG’s are prevalent, and I am not saying this is solved by grenades; but nerfing them will certainly make the problem worse. In both his posts, OP describes grenades as a “pocked LMG pin” and for once, I will accept that description: If you throw a grenade and pin and LMG, resulting in its silence, then you can move up and deal with it, or force if off the field. Mortars can also work, but they are much clunkier, and useless if the unit is mobile. They are also random, so there is a good chance that if the first shot misses, an opponent might just move the squad. It takes time for the mortar to pin a target, as oppose to dug in targets, which is what the mortar is meant for, while a grenade is instant. Which is needed to have the momentum to carry on an assault.
- OP also brought up american AT rifle grenades: Yes, these are broken, and to a limited extent, also the panzer gren AT- rifle grenade upgrade for the fusiliers. This needs to be looked at, but it is a separate issue. The luchs, with tungsten ammo, is actually a super tank. At range, it is a brutal opponent, being able to suppress groups of infantry and do massive damage. With tungsten rounds, it can win 1v1’s with most vehicles (exceptions are the AEC armored car, the valentine, and possibly the T-70 and maybe the puma)
Your point about the HMG bug: that offends me. My point stands, because bugs never factor into balance discussions. Do your due diligence, document and report them. No need, I have done that already: I have tested all of the HMG teams to make sure they stop firing after being pinned. They will finish their last burst if they are pinned while firing, then they will stop.
- The vickers (does not shoot wile pinned, but one every so often will shoot out 3 bullets. to my knowledge (i.e. what I observed) these do no damage and are a residual issue of vanilla.)
- US 30 cal: this one is wierd. a grenade does not actually pin the MG reliably, in addition I had issues with it not re-manning the machine gun after the model manning the MG was killed. Will need to test more.) I’m guessing the suppression resistance of this squad is too high. Does not shoot when pinned though, apart from the vickers issue.
- US 50 cal: does not fire while pinned.
- HMG 34 does not shoot while pinned.
- HMG 42: BUGGED! This one does not stop shooting when pinned.
- Maxim: does not shoot while pinned, but has the same mini-burst issue as the vickers. Once again, no damage observed to squad it was targeted at. Also has high pin resistance
- Dishka: does not fire when pinned, did observe vickers issue.
What I have observed with HMG squads: they recover from being pinned extremely quickly. A couple of seconds. I have seen them go from pinned to normal again during a hostile squads reload. They also have high pin resistance, meaning it is hard to suppress them with grenades to begin with. The nade has to land by the actual MG.
So for the most part, my point stands; HMGs do not fire under pin. They do have that mini burst bug, but 3 highly inaccurate shots is not going to pin or damage your squads. They also recover from pin stupidly fast; this may need a nerf. 1 MG firing while pinned out of 7 does not invalidate my point… to the contrary, it reinforces it. I know you are primarily a german player, which would explain why you find it so prevalent. (All relevant screenshots are on my steam profile, should be public)
Your point about german reinforcements is actually flawed. Expensive reinforcing is not unique to germans, as united kingdom doctrines have expensive reinforcement costs as well, while certain doctrines like IW have the cheapest reinforce cost in the game, while being German (true this requires special micro, so it’s not the best example.) As a rule though, thanks to the StG, and the FG-42 armed luft squads (which I know OP is fond of), these more expensive squads reach their max combat effectiveness well outside grenade range, unlike allied squads, who rely on grenades more to deal with elites. (Which when vetted, will usually suffer suppression from a nade, and not total pin. Not to mention I have thrown smoke nades on a pinned squad, and continued my advance, with the smoke allowing the squad that was pinned to recover and keep moving forward. Counterplay to counterplay.) So again, grenades are something you can mitigate/prevent, more with luft than with other doctrines actually.
One grenade related nerf I would support is if a squad upgrades to an LMG or rocket launcher/fausts, grenades on that squad are either made much more expensive, or removed entirely. This would prevent them from being able to effectively combat assault squads by throwing a grenade in their path.
Everything else you mention… I loathe to use the “git gud” argument, because it is an arrogant argument that is just not conducive to good discussion… however, in all the situations you described, it seems like you attention is placed in the wrong location. (why are you not paying attention to you flank, why did you allow him to capture both muni points?)
You *capturing both fuel and him having both muni points* situation is something I want to discuss more in depth… most maps are situated so that one fuel point is deeper in one persons territory, and they are always (like 95% of maps) positioned on opposite sides of the map, on the edges, while muni points are positioned towards the middle. So, what you are telling me is that he controls the middle of the map, while you have both fuel points in the edges, meaning he can flank you at his leisure. That is over extending. I go for both fuel points, yes but I only try and hold one, as having both at any point in the game gives me even the smallest fuel lead allowing me the tech faster, while holding both requires me to split forces, while he can concentrate them. Sure, if you can hold both fuel points, go for it, but the smart thing for you to do is: build the cache, while he is capturing one of the fuel points, go for the closer muni point.
Once again, the problem with SID’s grenade is the radius of effect, all grenades are perfectly dodge able. Later in the game, grenades should not be as much of an issue, as you have more stuff, so one nade does not ruin you, and you should be throwing your own nades as well. Dodging nades rewards skill and attention. at tier 1, you should have some sort of LMG, so squads getting out of cover should get pinned before they can throw, or right after. either way, I still don’t consider them an issue.
Here is a tip if you are really struggling: build a medic. 40 MP is really nothing, and it will allow you do break suppression, retreat a very short distance away, get a burst of healing, and get back to the fight. Give it a shot.
Grenades are a player punish mechanic. As they should be. They are also a player rewarding mechanic. OP aims to essentially nerf them to the ground.
Grenades pinning units is a reward to throwing the grenade at the right opportunity. And contrary to the post above, there is plenty of time to respond to the issue: you could walk out of range once you notice a squad coming in for the throw; you could sprint out of the way one you notice the wind-up animation. Even if you sprint only after the grenade is thrown, there is a chance you get suppressed or just take some damage. What you are suggesting is that squads should be able to just eat grenades… what is the point of that?
Either the grenade has to pin the squad, or it has to outright wipe multiple models, if not the entire squad, and I don’t see OP being happy with that option either.
Why am I spending 35 Muni, delaying LMG upgrades or giving up HMG squads so I can *maybe* suppress or damage the target squads (b/c although OP says it is difficult, people can and do dodge grenades. and on a personal note, I don’t usually have to “hammer” the zed key. I just calmly press it once, and usually avoid the pin). Unless OP wants grenades to also get cheaper? So that now instead of 1 nade, people throw them more? To wit:
If you suppress the squad, it can’t sprint, so what are people going to do: they are going to throw another one, one that will force a retreat, or destroy the squad, because if we are even going to remotely consider a nerf of this caliber, nades’ will have to be cheaper. So here we are, back at square one. So you either make a pointless nerf, or make grenades worthless. Thus would bring the meta into any squad that can cast suppression at long distance AKA LMG’s, making those more prevalent than they already are, making gameplay static and boring, unless you want to remove suppression from those too?
Second, there is no situation where a grenade pin is not the responsibility of the player who suffers it: At tier 0, where is you attention? It should be on your main push. Maybe you have 1 squad split-pushing somewhere else, and if that runs into the enemy main push, or you just lose focus? Tough luck. If you look away from your main push, and find your opponent has naded 3 of your squads… what were you looking away for? It’s tier 0!
If he nades your solo squad, too bad. It happens. But you are notified when an off screen squad comes under fire, and shooting always predates grenade throws. So…
Later in the game, there are mitigating factors that make grenades have less impact: veteran squads, more weapons thanks to upgrades, vehicles. So this is only really a tier 0 issue.
Now OP mentions docs being meta because of grenades. Unfortunately, that sentence is grammatically incorrect. You see, the word doc plural instead of singular, because only one doc has grenade issues: SID, as mentioned. This is cause by the increased radius of the grenades making them undodgeable. So nerf them. Problem solved. all of the other grenades are fine.
As for the accessibility: They really are not as free and spammy as OP would lead one to believe. You see, by using grenades, you give up a tier 0 HMG team, and you delay upgrades to your units at tier 1. So you do give up something.
The assault team point about units with SMG: it is a good point, and the OP pinpointed the issue correctly, but failed to correctly pinpoint the cause. The issue is not grenade suppression; the issue is suppression in general. Assault units cannot ignore the hail of fire coming from: LMGs, HMGs, vehicle mounted MGs, and, yes, pre-thrown grenades in the squads path, and thus have struggled to find a place in the current climate. Notice, OP is complaining about the most skillful of the above methods, as grenades throws to stop assault squads requires micro and attention, unlike the other 3, which only require positioning in the right direction, or even less. Grenades are not an anti-blob device. Their radius is not big enough. If you somehow have more than 1 squad pinned by 1 grenade, that is on you. Not that any of thee above is relevant, b/c you know what you will do if an assault squad gets suppressed or damaged by a nade? retreat it anyway. Unless you want SMG squads to be able to power through such damage and kill the opposition anyway? (considering OP specifically whined about the strength of assault partisans only a few weeks ago, I doubt they would be satisfied with this solution) Also, lets not forget that grenades are also a tool for assaulting infantry. The sword cuts both ways.
One more interaction that this nerf would remove: HMG’s would no longer be pinned, so would be able to fire their MG after eating a grenade. This would allow HMGs to be used as an offensive weapon, with whoever gets the first HMG into position essentially winning the fight, and all future fights, until mortars or light vehicles come out. Which, I’m sure most people would find to be far more brainless, one sided, and frustrating game play than grenades are right now. This behavior is demonstrated in the below screenshot using an MG-34, and in fact the squad of hostile sappers were suppressed, but had recovered. If an HMG does not demonstrate this behavior, it is a bug, and should be reported as such. Link to screenshot:
One more point OP made that I need to rebut: so you captured both fuel points, but your opponents got both muni points, and beat you, so… what is wrong with that?!
Muni is more valuable early game, not only b/c of nades, but because of tier 1 upgrades like LMGs. But in the long run, if you control both fuel points, you will out tech him and win. (What can you buy with muni at tier 1 and 0 vs what can you buy with fuel at tier 1 and 0. Unless you want to overhaul tech. And that is not going to happen.) The solution is to build a muni cache and move on (and if your argument is: “Well why do I need to spend 200 MP on a cache and he doesn’t?” My answer is: “because if you do your job and defend those 2 fuel points you probably overextended to get, he will need to build a fuel cache later. Or lose.”)
TL;DR Nerfing grenade in the manner described is, to quote OP “silly”. It removes counter play from dug in machine guns (because those were really struggling) , dumbs down the early game to where units with better shooting stats will carry tier 0 (because riflemen, grenadiers and jager were really struggling in the current meta) and creates problem while solving literally none. If you are losing games to early pins due to grenades, you need to become better at throwing your own, or better at reading animations and running away.
01/04/2020 at 6:37 pm in reply to: Regarding British Artillery and it's ability to observe. #12213
- This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Death_Kitty. Reason: Typos. Probably left some
The strength in British arty is not in its barrage. You want a strong barrages, any of the doctrines you named above will work. The strength in brit arty is the frequency. Brit arty is the only doctrine that can launch barrages non-stop, one after another, until the end of the game. Want to clear gaps? Uncle barrage from the GPO.
Also, unlike all the other doctrines, you get those HQ batteries at tier 2. for 50 muni. that is the cost of 2 nades. less than a bren (70)
once they get set up, with all 4 batteries, and the muni dump, plus one muni cache, you can keep up your barrages until the end of time. these will still stun tanks, force infantry to retreat and move. It is the most annoying doctrine to play against in the game, once it gets set up. the early game is mediocre, like most brit docs, but the double Stuart call in lets you push fairly hard at tier 2.
US arty is versatile, but it also features massive cool-downs, a very weak tank game, and priests eat CP and muni.
Soviet artillery is broken and needs a nerf. their 76 ZiS is just too good for what it is and is spammable to all hell.
SS arty is… better, ill give you that. their flame mortar is annoying, as are their infiltration troops, and their arty is dirt cheap and requires no setup what-so ever. So yeah. this is not a good thing.
the arty in lowlands is impractical: the land mattress is good, but the sextons require far to much MP to use.
Victor target would crash the game with 216 guns. it would be a nuke. no. just no.
What I do agree with:
-Tommy Prince is way too weak.
-victor target is weak, ill give it that. it could be more accurate.
-I wish many of the arty upgrade did more (sound ranging microphones, over watch)
- overwatch should be applied from an individual batter, not from the GPO. I.E. you could have 1 battery over watching a certain sector, while everything else fires barrages.
- Ranging microphones should work on axis heavy mortars (the halftracks)
I like this idea, but tie it to the commander upgrade instead of the discount itself. Remember, US has to go through a number of unlocks to get to it’s discount. I do like this idea though. Well done.
- This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Death_Kitty.
I like this idea, but tie it to the commander upgrade instead of the discount itself. Remember, US has to go through a number of unlocks to get to it’s discount. I do like this idea though. Well done.
OK. There are a lot of issues here. A lot of suggestions. I disagree with all of them. ( 😀 )
My issue with making Sherman V producible is: why build cromwell? There will be no reason. The sherman outperforms the cromwell every damn time. Unless you want to make a 75mm sherman a tier 4 tank… for some reason?
My issue with making tulip rockets kill infantry is this: Unlike most vehicles that can kill infantry squads in 1 shot, these rockets are good against tanks. Unlike the greyhound these rockets can be set off at long range. (You see a greyhound advance forward at your infantry, wtf do you think it is doing? ofc you know).
Now you might point at stuff like the ISU-152, the JT, the IS-2, the Brumbar, and to that I say: Those units are annoying to deal with, and we don’t need more of them. You might point to the inherent RNG of the rockets: yes! that is what we need to rely on! RNG!
Guards armor is a tricky doc, because the cromwell is not very strong against big cats. You know what is? The firefly. The rockets cost so much CP, because they allow a firefly to solo a panther, even if the panther shoots first. (the timing is tricky, b/c you need to pen the panther with 17 pounder, hit it with both rockets, before it reloads)
Make the firefly cheaper. It is easy, it is quick. Make the rockets cost lest muni to attach to tanks. If that dont work, we can come back to the drawing board.
If my opinion is still work anything, nick is completely right. Over time, it is less of a think that suppression immunity makes assault infantry good; suppression immunity, or strong AEA is what any SMG squad needs to be viable, period. If it has SMG’s, is an assault squad, and lacks suppression immunity, it is shit.
It is just not currently possible to advance on an entrenched LMG squad without losing your force to the LMG and suppression. It has gotten so bad that HMG teams just really are not useful. Why build the team when all of your regular squads have them, minus the movement penalty.
I agree with nick: all assault infantry should be immune to suppression for a limited amount of time. It should be built into all doctrines that rely on assault units. Smoke grenades could also do with a range buff, as the throwing range is pitiful right now. Assault squads should be able to plant smoke in front of LMG squads (who should not have grenades btw, to stop them from just being able to throw into smoke, and counter assault squads) and run up for win.
Maybe people would use more barbed wire then… but yeah.