Home Forums General Discussion Balance Discussion Balance rant, AKA, getting out the nerf bat for PZ jager.

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    • #12162
      Death_Kitty
      Moderator

      Couple of suggested changes for… whenever the devs have time. Feel free to discuss them. I am trying to keep them as easy as possible to implement. Ofc these are only my ideas, feel free to do with this as you wish.

      0.) Spotter tower for Wehrmacht MP drain removed.

      Thinking: the spotter tower for Wehrmacht the new one, should not drain any MP. It is a non combat building that has use against 2 docs that is fairly fragile. Why the 8 MP per min drain?

      1.) Allow AT guns to embark on transports to simulate “towing”.

      Thinking: The idea here is while tanks and light vehicles can zoom around the map, AT guns take forever to reposition, in addition to arriving at the front line much later, which can be enough time for an LV rush to push you off the point. This would be balanced out by the following: you would need micro and to build a transport that at least enters the map at tier 2 (exception is the opel blitz/russian truck, which should be able to carry the smaller AT gun, but with the damage that thing does, I think mobility is the least it could have.) Any larger AT gun requires tier 2 for mobility, and it would still require considerable micro to use. This would include that Pak 40.

      2.) USSR arty: ZiS 76 barrage can no longer stun tanks; guns limited to 2 (in addition to the 2 emplaced guns for a total of 4); cost for barrage increased.

      Thinking: From what I have heard, the use of USSR arty is just oppressive, and the 152mm howitzers are being overshadowed by the ZiS 76 guns. This makes sense, as the 76mm cost much less investment, are cheaper to maintain, mobile, and can be hid in your base, away from retaliation. These nerfs should encourage the 152mm to be built and make it more attractive. 

      3.) Jager from TH doctrine now must pay 45 munitions to receive their panzerfausts. In addition, starting loadout changed to 4 kar 98 and 1 SVT. At tier 1, they can upgrade to their current loadout for correct munitions cost. Volkstrum squad gains same restriction, but their upgrade requires volkstrum truck. Panzerfausts are not longer free to fire after CP upgrade. Now cost 10-20 muni. Panzerfausts remain free to fire for panzer zestorer infantry.

      Thinking: Right now the magical free faust upgrade make close assault by units with flamethrowers impossible. All that happens is that the jager, in addition to murdering at tier 0, can just run out, fire their fausts, and end you whole push. combined with an MG, this renders the doc impossible to counter, apart from sustained artillery bombardment. This change aims to reduce their close AT power. Also, losing munitions access will mater for this doc now! As it bloody should. 

      4.) Jagdtiger loses S-mines. Jagdtiger loses access to scope. Elephant loses access to hull-down (sorry starbuck, I know you worked hard on that animation). Wittmannn loses S-mins

      Thinking: JT will probably require a rework. It makes no sense for a unit with as thick armor as the JT to have s-mine, which makes flanking it with infantry extraordinarily difficult. It should also not be able to fire from additional range with gun that can one-hit almost all other vehicles in the game.

      The elephant is already a heavily armored behemoth, It does not need an additional HP boost, or obstacles to block potential shots. 

      Wunderwaffe already has amazing anti-infantry options, and rather than protect it from flanks, it seems the Wittmann s-mines are being used to charge into infantry and massacre them, an infuriating mechanic in a doctrine that seems full of them. 

      5.) Cost of tulip rockets decreased from 80 munitions to fire to 50 munitions to fire, Airstrikes in this doctrine go from 250 muni to call in to 150 muni and 60 fuel.

      Thinking: UK armor as a doc is already extremely munitions heavy. between all of the infantry upgrades (Bren, PIAT), the scope upgades for fireflys (key component to their survivability) and the 250 (!!!) munition airstrikes, as well as the 50 muni and 35 fuel cost to mount them to begin with, the cost of these rockets to fire is… well, silly. Potentially increasing their damage to bunkers/buildings might also be something that could be looked at, as UK armor do not have a good breakthrough unit. 

      The airstrike change is to, again, take pressure of the muni of the doc, and make fuel a more important resource late game, maybe get some use out of the fuel dump. 

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      EXPERIMENTAL PROPOSALS (Bigger changes/harder to mod)

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      6.) uhu’s sweep now is a temporary ability that costs munitions to use (don’t know how hard this will be to mod in.) Muni cost of stuka-zu-fus increased.

      Thinking: The uhu at the moment is the source of why wunderwaffe is one of the most powerful docs in the game. In addition to great infantry, superb tanks, they can prevent flanking attacks, as well as aim the stuka-zu-fus with perfect accuracy through the fog of war. The combination of walking stuka and uhu should be much more expensive, and the activation of the light might warn the other player or incoming tanks or rockets, adding some counter-play. 

      7.) massive mortar bunker for SID now generates increased MP income for sector it is built in. Officer is unique for the doctrine, allowing to speed up construction. Concrete obstacles (dragon teeth) build much faster.

      Thinking: Just some ideas to make the fortification part of SID more attractive, and reduce early game power

      8.) COC commandos gammon bomb now inflicts 40 sec. stun or immobilization crit 100% of the time.

      Thinking: Because COC needs help. This would make commandos terrifying. it is the same crit as what the american sticky bomb does. It might very well be over powered, when combined with other players with good AT capability. Right now, the gammon bomb is far too unreliable, that is for sure, so some buff needs to be done. 

      9.) When a unit upgrades to an LMG (and possibly an AT weapon like bazooka/panzershreck/panzerfaust?), grenades for that squad are either disabled, or doubled in price. HMG teams recover much more slowly from Pin/Supression

      Thinking: While I vehemently disagree with Lung about the pin effect of grenades, I will give him some credit for their power against assaulting units. This should separate units into 2 classes: assault, and line infantry, and halt the creation of general purpose DOOM squads, apart from those available in call-ins. 

      The HMG team change is there due to the fact that HMG teams seem to recover from pin/suppression incredibly quickly. 

      10.) Splinter grenades adjusted for SID: Radius of damage stays the same, but suppression radius reduced .(i.e. it can only pin/suppress in the same radius as a normal grenade, but it will still deal damage at the greater radius.)

      Thinking: So it is dodgeable like any other grenade, it’s damage will just be easier to dodge to compensate for the poor shooting stats of Festung grens. Before being able to buff the fortification aspect, this grenade needs to be toned down. 

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       SUPER EXPERIMENTAL PROPOSALS (Biggest changes/hardest to mod)

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      11.) Flamethrowers of all kinds now clear out building much faster.

      Thinking: Ever since the fuel cost was added to engineer flamer kits, they have fallen out of use. Flame tanks are also seldom seen, due to either being on outdated platforms (KV-8) or just being hard to micro (Sherman Croco, OT-34). Buffing their clearing capability might allow for them to serve a roll once again, if they can get in range. 

      12.) New ability for SMG based squads: (i.e. squads with majority SMG’s, like upgraded luft pioneer, or commandos with their assault kit (British/american) etc.)

      FIRE AND ADVANCE: Ability costs 50 muni, and is castable on 1 hostile squad, reducing its accuracy considerably.

      Thinking: Right now assault infantry are not worth it, until high vet, as LMG squads are very common, and inflict tons of suppression making assaults difficult. This would give those squads a leg up. The idea is that HMG teams will still be able to power through the buff, but solo LMG squads would have much more trouble, giving assault teams time to close the distance)

      13.) Smoke grenades cost decreased to 10 muni.

      Thinking: Smoke grenades are hard to use, as the distance they can be thrown is tiny. If you buff this distance, then smoke could be thrown right in front of the enemy squad, and you could just run up and kill/nade it. Lowering the cost could allow people to slowly leapfrog smoke up to the front positions, giving you opponent time to react. 

      P.S. A lot of nerfs were dealt to LMG squads, either through nerfs to them, or buffs to assault teams. May shit meta too far in opposite direction. Please consider this.

       

       

      • This topic was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Death_Kitty.
    • #12290
      kefir_
      Participant

      Oh boi, first things first:

      2.) Limiting already limited arty is a really bad idea. Removing stun? ryl? So why not remove it from others every other Arty? Soviet artillery is the only arty doc that actually NEEDS TO BUILD guns on the map to use arty. Only thing that needs nerf in sov arty are penals. If you want to see more 152mm guns direct fire ability with more range or passive (like AT gun) would make this option more welcoming then complaining about zis-3.

      5.) Personally i would make Tulips upgrade more expensive but free to use, like to 80 ammo and 35 fuel.

      6.) Reducing range of map-hack sounds imo like far easier and better option.

      8.) Imo just price reduction to 30-35 ammo would be enough with 10sec of stun, immobilize crit work fine if you par assault with AT squad (and it work every time, if not it’s bug that need to be reported).

      At the end I really like  ideas with Jagdtiger and jagers nerfs.

      • #12292
        Death_Kitty
        Moderator

        2.) Right now people playing soviet arty don’t build the 152 mm howitzer. No point. Just the B-4 and the 76mm, which are unlimited. Once you get 4-5 ZiS-76 (which are dirt cheap), you basically nuke everything. This is meant to encourage people to build those howitzers, which will still have that stun. Also, if USSR arty is the only doctrine that has to build its arty on the map, what do Canadian arty and SID do exactly? Also, lets not forget, the 76mm ZiS can just hide in the back of you base, which is what makes it infuriating, while the 152 mm actually has to be out on the map.

        5.) I disagree, but fair enough.

        6.) Perhaps, but at some point it will either remain annoying, or just have too little range. The best way to go about it is to make it cost something and be limited.

        8.) The thing is, gammon bombs don’t have a reliable crit profile rn. I am hoping to give it one.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Death_Kitty.
      • #12305
        kefir_
        Participant

        2.) Nerfing good thing (not op) is really strange way for “making 152mm more welcoming”, increased range for AT ability or even if it could work like AT gun in passive direct fire role like Pak43 would make them more worth using. Dirt cheap? Little less then 300mp + 50ammo per gun is cheap in your opinion? Well so what about free HQ 25pdrs, 5.5 inc, whole SS arty and so on, even static doc gets off maps which don’t require ANY arty piece on map, only cp. And if you gonna compere it to 25pdr double emplacement I’ll just remind you that it’s DOUBLE and (not like russian 76mm) barrage are independent from others emplacement or HQ which gives you option to cover more land.

      • #12306
        kefir_
        Participant

        Oh about 76mm, yeah max number of 3 zis-3 guns for sth around 300mp + ammo per gun then you have to pay 500mp per emplacement and ammo with max of 2. So your point with, quote “Just the B-4 and the 76mm, which are unlimited” isn’t true.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by kefir_.
        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by kefir_.
        • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by kefir_.
    • #12291
      kefir_
      Participant

      “0.) Spotter tower for Wehrmacht MP drain removed

      Thinking: the spotter tower for Wehrmacht the new one, should not drain any MP. It is a non combat building that has use against 2 docs that is fairly fragile. Why the 8 MP per min drain?

      I mean really? It’s cheap and it’s give you range of 6x scope (i guess?) and yeah it counter 2 docs, but it’s counter them really well.

    • #12294
      Mystalicious
      Participant

      Canadian arty has two free Howitzers and off-map 5.5 Inch which are more than effective on their own.

      Static still gets Nebelwerfers and Karl Gerät without needing any onmap guns.

       

      Russian Arty relies on its on-map capability and those are not only arty but also your AT Guns which are quite important and already limited to three normal and two emplacements…..

      Also hearing < Actual experience

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Mystalicious.
      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Mystalicious.
      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Mystalicious.
      • #12298
        Death_Kitty
        Moderator

        Accurate. However, I cannot be relied upon to play for and against every single doc in the game. So I have relied upon the feedback of others. People I know you would consider reliable. The fact is the 76mm barrage is just too good, and in a PvP game, you do not have the resources to set up you 152mm howitzers and your 76mm howitzers. You are familiar with the 76 barrage. It destroys everything, on top of being very  versatile.

        And these can be hidden in your base, or emplaced; either way, they are much cheaper and less vulnerable than the 152 mm.

        So, tl;dr. UK gets 2 base guns plus uncle, static gets nebel and karl, none of that is enough to run an arty doc (the base howitzers are just not enough bombardment, while the other 3 are on massive cooldowns), and USSR arty can hid 3 guns in their base.

        In terms of AT capability, the doc is not that lacking.

      • #12308
        kefir_
        Participant

        And once again – 5.5 inc arty

        Karl + Nebelwerfers are not enough? Well pak43s has Victory targets too…just like zis-3 but with 88mm guns that actually can take any allied tank. Imo 100mp more then zis-3 gun for it is dirt cheap.

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