Soviet Guards Rifle

I would like to add on my own suggestions regarding soviet Guards rifle doctrine in this topic.

The RNG callin for the tanks could perhaps be changed to  be not RNG, but similar to how luftwaffe ground forces have their tier dependent callin (e.g at tier 3, the callin deploys a stug and a luft fusilier squad instead of an hmg-34 and a luft fusilier squad at tier 0). And perhaps changing the composition of the callin tanks too. I think the Valentine and Churchill MkIV call in should be either tier 3 only and/or changed to be 2 Churchills at least, because the MkIV has worse armor than the Sherman 76 and still worse penetration and damage despite being perma APCBC (or 6 pounder?).

I’m unsure about the Tank destroyer group callin, as the M10 while T3, has better penetration than the SU85, which trades it for instantly killing Panzer IVs I guess (and is T4). An old suggestion on discord I remembered was perhaps adding a captured Jagdpanzer IV to the mix of possible callins.

The valentine could perhaps be buildable instead of the M5 stuart (IRL the Soviets got more lend lease valentines than stuarts, and those were only M3 iirc). If not, perhaps extend the tank callin so that a 2x Valentine could be a T2 tank callin before being replaced by MkIV Churchills at T3 and Sherman 76 at T4.

And now as for the Guards promotion, one thing that bothered me was that their minor weapon upgrade, the 4x SVT or 4x Thompsons upgrade are slot items that often causes the squad to not have their DP28 or bazooka out when they are lacking models, especially disadvantageous for the Thompson guards as they lose DPS earlier than an LMG Guard. A possible fix for this is to have the promotion upgrade to be separated, where a veteran conscript squad can upgrade to an American pack Guards squad or Soviet pack Guards squad (could be similar to US riflemens’s specialize upgrade, where a single button reveals two upgrade choices). Their Thompsons or SVTs can then be tied to the individual models in the squad instead of having to be slot items, and thus can be overridden by their DP28, bazooka, or other slot items they picked up. And like OP’s suggestion, I think this solution at the minimum shouldn’t cost any more munitions than the current state, as a promoted conscript squad will be throwing away their previous upgrades, or has lots of time invested to vet it without munitions.

This is perhaps a wishful suggestion from me, but Guards riflemen iirc has a single MP40 in their squad. I think Guards being veteran troops should receive a buff, the same way SS grenadiers have their single MP40 turn into an STG upon receiving vet 2. Maybe change the Guards MP40 to a Ppsh instead? and they start out as vet 2 although I believe this is a fair trade for the investment needed to vet conscripts and to compensate for throwing away their previous weapon upgrades.

And ofc, unless the Wikinger Devs intend for us to keep some conscripts unpromoted, I think there should be an option for the Guards to upgrade to rifle grenades again, with perhaps a grenade assault for the American pack instead.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 8 months ago by jjerrysmith.

Guards riflemen are a small “upgrade” to the regular Conscripts. You have increased stats with them, as they are above regular conscripts. Making their stuff free is not an idea I support (perhaps making their promotion a little cheaper, so you don’t just waste conscript lives, and pay nothing for a brand new full squad), as the reason why Sturmzug gets their stuff for “Free” is because they have a restricted radius, and pay 100 munitions for their upgrades. Sturmzug to Guards riflemen is also probably a bad example, as Sturmzug are produced separate from regular infantry, rather than upgraded from
Perhaps it’d be more relevant to use Stormgroups as a comparison, as they are closer in comparison; Both squads are armed to the teeth with fully automatic weaponry, both have a “special” ability (Sturmzug have white phosphorus, Stormgroup have Panzerfäuste)

As for vet 2+ upgrades (PPSH instead of MP40) I honestly see no point, as a single weapon in particular doesn’t really mess with how a squad performs later on (unless its an AT weapon, or weapon of significance; MG, Flamethrower, AT weapon, etc)

As for lost weaponry, it does suck that they lose it, but, there are limitations to how much can be done for “weapon retention”

Tier based call ins are kind of annoying, unless its the case of Luftwaffe, in which case, its honestly pretty well set (differences aren’t too pronounced for each varying call in; StuG and Pak 40 have same pen values)
So Between free-APCR-with-less-penetration, and insta-kill panzer IV chassis, I honestly would not like to see this become a guaranteed sort of thing; It’s cheaper in the way of munitions to use M10’s, and they are also somewhat versatile in the fact that they have a turret (as slow as it is), but you insta-kill any panzer IV chassis with regular shot from an SU-85

Now, I will say this, the Heavy tank brigade can be tier based; Churchhill and Valentine tier 3, M4A2 76mm’s tier 4

Churchhill should not be fighting in tier 4, as its pretty much guaranteed to die. It and the Valentine both have 6 pounder guns, so they do 102mm of armor penetration, rather than their QF75 counterparts with less penetration

As for produced Valentines over Stuarts; Honestly, no thank you
Stuart’s can attack and destroy vehicles, not the fastest at it, but they can
Their penetration values can’t be used to their advantage like the valentines can; 102mm of penetration on a tier 2 vehicle
You would end up producing more valentines in tier 3, than you would Tier 3 tanks; the valentine has roughly comparable armor to the M4A2 75mm’s, and more penetration, and it would be far wiser to just spam Valentines to win, rather than anything else. I can understand Britain being given QF75 Valentines, and AEC’s, but not Soviet guards 6pdr Valentines at tier 2; Britian is heavily bottle necked in its production lines, as you can’t make tier 2, then tier 1, you have to go Tier 1, then 2, and you can’t swap it around

IS-1 reload rate increase? I honestly don’t know, thats up to the devs to decide if they wanna edit it, I’d be down for it, but not praying for it

I do think that while Guards promotion should not be free, I do think it is right now too expensive for too little. Guards promotion requires a total of 420 MP and 50 muni at the minimum, and this is before the requirements of getting vet 2, which will take more time and bleeds manpower more if one sends a conscript squad unupgraded, and upgrading a conscript squad is  pricey enough before discarding on promotion. So it is either sink more muni to get veterancy faster or possibly bleed more manpower and take more time to earn vet 2, since unupgraded conscripts aren’t really that good against most axis infantry.

I think the 150mp + 50mu upgrade can stay in place, with my suggestion that the minor weapon upgrades (SVT/thompson) becomes standard/model weapons instead, this should still keep the promotion cost without making it another ammo drain to buy their replacement for discarding conscript ppsh/dp-28 packages, Making them still have to purchase their DP28 or bazooka (perhaps not as a passive/pocket bazooka, because they’re not a specialized unit with a limit on how many can be produced). I believe this much and a QOL improvement to not losing their heavy slot item to their SVT/thompsons, could be granted to the Guards promotion.

I do agree with Guards promotion not being a sturmzug equivalent… They’re specialist T1 infantry with a unit cap, like 101st AB riflemen or the Guard’s own Shocktroops. I would like to think of Guards promotion as something above Tommies (being the only nondoc T1 standard infantry) because they’re doctrinal, but below the unit capped squads. But promoted Guards have the requirement to gain veterancy to be even made (Penals exist, but they are not mainline infantry, and have their own conditions to gain a promotion, by busting bunkers or sticking a magnetic bomb on enough tanks), so on top of 420mp + 50 muni being pricey enough, the cost of reinforcing and upgrades as a conscript imo should be taken into account, and I think the current Guards promotion is not quite worth that much.

As for the single ppsh on the squad… It is a suggestion for flavor sure, but imo a single weapon like the ppsh or stg does have an impact and every bit helps, not to mention some other squads do still have upgrades for 1x of these weapons such as mp40 to stg on german officers or a single stg on Easy Company squads, so FWIW its not really an unprecedented change. That Guards promotion will start off the squad at veterancy 2 anyway means that it won’t need to be a complicated veterancy based weapon replacement, just have it as one of the model’s weapon (Im basically just asking that the current guards MP40 is just replaced to a ppsh)

Nick’s suggestion for conscripts to be knockoff US riflemen (at least in terms of their standard rifle) is interesting, another unique mainline infantry for the Soviets besides OMSBON partisans, though it could be a problem if people confuse the SVT-38 with the SVT-40 since they would  have to use the same model, with different performance. But im down for it, perhaps being a 300mp garand squad clone, but still has conscript upgrades. Being better than mosin conscripts would perhaps allow it to vet faster too

I changed my mind on the buildable Valentine… it would be too strong, and takes away a bit at the identity of UK lowlands doctrine. But it being at tier 3 is still a bit disadvantageous, as it would die in one shot to 75mm guns and does not have the hulldown of lowlands valentines. I prefer 2x Churchill MKIV, as they don’t instantly die, is still slow and has pennable 89mm armor, still somewhat worse than the PzIV H.

The other way I can see a valentine still being in Soviet guards doctrine would be as a new T2 version of the callin, but perhaps only 1x with another light vehicle accompanying it such as a Bren carrier or a Stuart at most. It would give another option for a doctrinal light armor rush to compete with Tank doctrine’s T70 and clowncar . It’s still very well armored and armed for T2 (tho its 6pdr still doesn’t oneshot Luchs) but slow so it wouldn’t be as capable at rushing or chasing down enemy light vehicles, it and a bren carrier would be a more defensive callin. And ofc you’re required to lose the Valentine somehow to make way for T3 and T4 versions of the tank callin.

I agree with the tank destroyer callin, either 2x M10 or 2x SU85 is good in their own ways and is probably OK to remain RNG. IS-1 boost to reload sounds good, tho it seems strong already for a cost reduction as it’s still very well armored and still capable of bouncing L/70 occasionally and the 85mm is still formidable against anything other than Panthers and superheavies

sorry for walls of text, so I add a tl:dr
– Guard promotion price unchanged, but split into US/SOV squad promotion and thompson/svt is a out of the box non slot weapon instead of starting with mosins, bazooka and dp28 can still be bought, a single guard mp40 -> ppsh is a nice small buff
– Promoted guards having rifle grenades for sov pack or a grenade assault for american pack yay or nay?
– T3 tank callin is 2x churchill, T4 is double M4A2 (76) instead of rng, dont forget there’s still 1x tank rider squad in either
–  1x valentine and 1x bren carrier w/ Dshk as a t1+t2 tank callin?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by jjerrysmith. Reason: add tldr
• This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by jjerrysmith.