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Tiger aces Bölter and Wittman have aura buff for infantry, my problems with this:
- its too subtle for the enemy player, buffed units should have the lightning icon on top of them and not just in the unit portrait, just like foot officers aura buffs. EDIT: All buffs from all officers and all aces (allies too ofc) should be visible on portrait and also on top of squad with ligthning/shield icon.
- unlimited time for no suppression (and pin) for no cost
- aura range is huge, see screenshot
This ability is so subtle that I’ve just noticed it today, however I play the mod for over a year. This explains some strange situations where I didn’t understand how the wehr enemy was able to break throug my mgs and bunkers without getting suppressed or better, pinned.
My ideas for nerf:
- aura range should be smaller, half at least
- lighting icon on top of the buffed squad (portrait icon should stay of course)
- and maybe this should be the same ability on ability grid like officer charge from foot officers and maybe not for free
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First, lemme just address a few things, starting in order as they are presented:
1. Its subtle yes, but the fact that its a UNIQUE Tiger (Wittman, I can understand, but Hans? He has Barrel detail, which is a dead giveaway), and that it is closely following infantry, or maintaining a good overwatch distance, should be your first indicator.
2. Unlimited time and no cost; You make it sound as if its completely unrestricted, and quickly accessible. Hans and Wittman both have extremely long cool downs, and are both expensive for a single Tiger tank. You pay 850 Manpower for Colmar, who is a Tiger I, but its alright cause Germany (The country that actually MADE them!) has two for 1000MP minimum?
Colmar is significantly limited, as the French only captured 1 Tiger. This is shown as its only able to be called in ONCE!A reoccurring theme I find, is that people expect things to cost exactly the same, regardless of faction. My question to this is: How many MG-42’s did Britain manufacture for Commando units? How many MP-40’s did they produce for those elite units? How many GERMAN guns did the BRITISH make during the war?
It costs more for CAPTURED equipment, because its a far more rare commodity than the equipment your faction produced in real life; MP-40’s and MG-42’s cost more for Commandos than Suppressed Stens and a Vickers MG, because the supply of Stens and the Vickers, were more available to the British than the supply of MG-42’s and MP-40’s, because Britian made Stens and Vickers machine guns.
It should cost Germans more to get PPSH’s, and captured gear (And it does), because they didn’t produce it, but instead had to capture it.
So if Hans or Wittman’s buff is so broken due to cost (Which is a great amount of Manpower) , then Colmar must cost exceedingly more than either of the two, due to it being a captured tank (says the same for any captured tanks or equipment).
3. The range is sufficient, as you have far more room to work inside of. If its too large, then suppression breaking buffs need to be reduced to owned territories, as they are capable of being used anywhere, at the click of a button. You can assault any point with Rangers, and pop “Rangers lead the way” anywhere you want. It has no cost, and only has a cooldown for ability use.
Now, the argument of ” Insert-Tiger-Ace” has no cooldown ” will arise, and I am here to point out how God-awfully long their cooldown is when they get destroyed. You have a relatively quick infantry ability, then you have the hundreds of seconds cooldown of a destroyed Tiger. So I have no idea where this “No cooldown” thing came from; Its got a cooldown, you just gotta destroy it to make the ability limited.
The aura is unlimited so long as units are within range, and the tank is still alive. This is because other tank Aces get aura’s too. You don’t want to have to constantly use an ability to keep your units accurate with the M20 command car, do you? Especially one that costs precious munitions.
I may also bring up the fact that Allied doctrines can sustain abilities like such, due to their ability to have Depots. Germany gets no Depot buildables, they get no increase to fuel capacity, munition capacity. So they get only regular buildable points, which give the same as allied points. I will also point out that SS (OKW) cannot build points, and instead must rely on trucks that only benefit the person who placed them, not the whole team. At least Depot’s increase your teammates fuel income, a OKW truck does nothing for your team.
Lastly, since its a point worth rebutting; You don’t need an indicator, you merely need to recognize that the enemy has a Tiger beside it, and what units have Aura’s; Know your enemy.
Thats all.
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Colmar is crap as it is right now, even for 850 mp. Go for it and call it in only if you have plenty of CP and MP and you cant spend anywhere else. It doesn’t have apcr so it is good only against p4s but even p4 apcr can pen it. For 850 its not worth at all in its current state, maybe for 600 I would “buy” it, maybe. But I don’t understand why you brought Colmar to this argument. My point is not about who can have a (or 3) tiger and for how much price, but about the 2 tiger ace infantry nossuppress/nopin buff.
“Unlimited time and no cost; You make it sound as if its completely unrestricted, and quickly accessible.”
Yes it is. Call in that ace and puff, no more suppression for your infantry in a BIG range around it.
“Hans and Wittman both have extremely long cool downs, and are both expensive for a single Tiger tank”
If they are destroyed, well, that’s bad gameplay, and must be punished. That single tiger tank can take out everything except the heaviest ally tanks. 1250 mp for a tank like this is bargain.
“The range is sufficient, as you have far more room to work inside of. If its too large, then suppression breaking buffs need to be reduced to owned territories, as they are capable of being used anywhere, at the click of a button. You can assault any point with Rangers, and pop “Rangers lead the way” anywhere you want. It has no cost, and only has a cooldown for ability use.”
I said the aura range is too big, not too small. It needs to be toned down, maybe for half the current range. Rangers ability has cooldown, can’t be activated all the time, it has time limit for like 40 second and not always on, and it also doesn’t give “harder to hit” buff, so mgs and 20mils will still cut down those rangers, you just cant compare the two. Oh and rangers are rangers, their job was to do this stuff, but tiger ace nosupress/nopin bonus is applied even the shittiest infantry.
“Now, the argument of ” Insert-Tiger-Ace” has no cooldown ” will arise, and I am here to point out how God-awfully long their cooldown is when they get destroyed. You have a relatively quick infantry ability, then you have the hundreds of seconds cooldown of a destroyed Tiger. So I have no idea where this “No cooldown” thing came from; Its got a cooldown, you just gotta destroy it to make the ability limited.”
First of all, the cooldown starts when you call in that tiger ace. Idk how long it is, 10-20 minutes? If you cant make that tiger ace survive for 10-20 minutes, then see my previous point, bad gameplay–>get punished. What I referred to as no cooldown is for the “ability” itself, it is on indefinitely as long as the tiger is alive.
“The aura is unlimited so long as units are within range, and the tank is still alive. This is because other tank Aces get aura’s too. You don’t want to have to constantly use an ability to keep your units accurate with the M20 command car, do you? ”
Except, allied aces are destroyed easily with tigers, kt-s and jagdpanzers and that m20 is paper, not worth to risk it getting lost. However I will check the allies bonuses too.
“Lastly, since its a point worth rebutting; You don’t need an indicator, you merely need to recognize that the enemy has a Tiger beside it, and what units have Aura’s; Know your enemy.”
This one is where I very much don’t agree with you. I played the mod (and I play only wikinger mod, no vanilla) for over a year, and I realized this buff yesterday. I was used to the lightning icon of infantry buffs from foot officers, so I never thought that some other buff can have no lightning icon. Either drop that lightning icon totally or have it for every other infantry officer buff, no matter if officer is on foot or in tank. Right now its totally inconsistent so misleading.
This lightning icon:
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I will just answer to you points:
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- “Except, allied aces are destroyed easily with tigers, kt-s and jagdpanzers and that m20 is paper, not worth to risk it getting lost. However I will check the allies bonuses too.” Did you heard about IS-2, ISU-152 even T-34-85? I guess you should keep an eye on them too. Same thing with Pershing, Jumbo, easy-eights…comets, fireflies…oh wait almost any mid-late game oriented tank regardless of factions can take out other mid-late game tank? No waaay. There is also stug ace just to remind, i doubt if he is that hard to kill.
- “First of all, the cooldown starts when you call in that tiger ace. Idk how long it is, 10-20 minutes? If you cant make that tiger ace survive for 10-20 minutes, then see my previous point, bad gameplay–>get punished. What I referred to as no cooldown is for the “ability” itself, it is on indefinitely as long as the tiger is alive.” Imagine air strike happening, arty, AT squad ambush, anything that more then 100mm armour pen, just ordinary things. But I’ll go further, lets apply this to any heavy tank in game, every one (even buildable ones), yeah 10-20min cooldown after losing any heavy tank, because i see that if you lose heavy tank its just bad gameplay and you should be punished.
- “If they are destroyed, well, that’s bad gameplay, and must be punished. That single tiger tank can take out everything except the heaviest ally tanks. 1250 mp for a tank like this is bargain” so now why “Colmar is crap”? Just stop saying that lack of APCR magically makes him useless…i won’t to be rude but this argument still makes me lough
At the end, Bash on Regardless stays active for 40sec, not exhausted penalties, its free to use, Za Rodinu cost something around 50ammo, similar radius as Wittman or Hans with not exhausted penalties at tier 1, Rangers lead the Way for all equipped with automatic weapons and bazookas Rangers for free …oh i almost forgot, every of this ability gives you receiving damage reduction, faster weapons time, reload speed etc.
Suppression break for cp heavy tank that comes really late to the game doesn’t sound that awful
Oh sov arty doc has penals, i heard that they’re quite well-known in pvp, don’t they?
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colmar IS crap lol. 1 time call in, and it has fuel. its like its the only call in that got balanced before all the others. also, even if colmar was good, the rest of the doc is a bit.. underperforming. you have too pay lots of CP too get basic things. but even then, its a tiger, on the allied side. it goes up vs pak 40s that can easily pen it. along with pzjagers.
rangers lead the way doesnt make them OP….. the best kind of infantry ingame is LMG inf, near hands down. SMGs are overpriced when they arent free, and only can sorta do decent in the mid game when the enemy may not have the whole front guarded, or may not have enough LMGs, or have too rely on flankable HMGs. but typically, just press the retreat button and you are gauranteed survival against any SMG squad with any other squad. rangers have no LMGs on em, not even a BAR. and, even if they do start charging you, after investing 3+3+2CP for the assault squad + medal of honor unlocks, just throw a grenade. even if it doesnt pin em, the LMG can def beat the wounded squad at any range.
i mean, free immunity too suppresion is sorta strong for the tiger, but i dont really see it as OP. its nice, and def can help if your moving up your tiger plus inf too charge an LMG squad in a building or trench, even if you are just asking for arty strike. but i dont think your gonna win a 1v1 out in the open in a LMG duel vs a squad in cover because you are immune too suppresion. it might help, but part of green cover is that, you can still out DPS anything by being in a trench or green cover vs enemies that arent in a trench or green cover, suppression or not. the main problem with stuff like tiger call in is just that its manpower only, but thats bound too get fix after the last doc comes out.
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i dont think the tiger buffs are OP. but, i do think its worth understanding that, although lots of docs do get good tanks, not all of them do. and i think its slightly skewed so axis have a bit more available. luft has panthers, wunder has lots, freiwill has tiger gruppe (even though that one is arguably the “worst” due too its later time of arrival), pzgren has panther and tiger, scorched earth is p reasonable since it only has jagdpanzer L 70s (which can still bounce a bazooka), pzjager has jagdtiger, defensive has elefant. yes, some allied docs do have things that can counter these. but most of the time there is caveats. for example ,T-34-85 lacks the pen too properly counter panther and can struggle vs tiger, esp with vet. i dont think m4a3e2 jumbo 76 is a proper “equal” too the tiger- both cant pen eachother without APCR, but with APCR, e2 dies in 2 88mm APCR shots, tiger requires 5-6 APCR shots. still not in the jumbos favor. jackson can, without any strings attached, go straight up against panthers and tigers. its just a 1 shot too tigers but it can camo so, no big deal. firefly is also similar, tigers need vet too 1 shot it but its pen is reliable enough too combat panthers and tigers, even if its dmg means it might take an extra shot. wolverine can tackle tigers and panthers, yes, but imo its pen is incorrect historically (or a lot of other tanks penetration are incorrect historically). but yeah, it can also kill a tiger if you have two of em. so, that means that, all US docs, 3/4 brit docs, and soviet artillery, tank, and guards inf have something that can match the normal axis heavies (<span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>not the super heavies!!!! i havent gotten into those yet).</span><span style=”text-decoration: underline;”> </span> but heres the thing- the axis dont need too match the allied heavies in terms of armor. just pzjager ambush. frontal pen anything with 2x pzshrek and 1x faust, times 2 if you have 2x pzjager, which accelerate instantly compared too tanks slow acceleration from camo. whih is extremely strong compared too the fact that allies typically need too rely upon armored vehicles which are much more fragile than inf too do their tank killing. the only allied docs that have sneaky inf that can take out a tank frontally, is omsbon. you get 2x partisan specialist, 2x partisan assault, do 2x pzfaust and 2x rpg-40 against any tiger or panther. but even then, the panzerfaust and, most likely the rpg-40, will bounce against the axis super heavies. so this too only works the normal axis heavies. the axis superheavies require the US airborne rocket strafe (all the other allied ones heavily underperform in comparison), or artillery. artillery hard counters everything thats on the ground, if you have the muni too use it. its a hammer, and every other unit ingame is a nail too be beaten with it. its much more efficient than almost any other method of killing inf or tanks. and, both axis and allies have docs that can get absurd ammounts of it. imo, i think scorched earth gets the most of it available with the least ammount of investment, so i think they are the best arty doc, but then again, that just my opinon- i know UK and US arty can get similar ammounts of offmap destruction without much resource investment, and SOV arty can get shit tons of onmap arty if you have infinite resources, but they have penals anyway.
oh, about the buffs on inf. im fine with em imo, i just wish there was more like it. stuff that buff inf, stuff like heroic charge and for the rodina, imo it should all be free. let people have some pushing capability even if they dont have the muni too pay a tax for arty. hell, everything besides super heavies and arty could use a buff so they are on par with those 2 things, in a metaphorical sense. (the only reason super heavies are good is because ONLY offmaps and indirect can kill em, and only axis realistically have em).
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If my opinion is still work anything, nick is completely right. Over time, it is less of a think that suppression immunity makes assault infantry good; suppression immunity, or strong AEA is what any SMG squad needs to be viable, period. If it has SMG’s, is an assault squad, and lacks suppression immunity, it is shit.
It is just not currently possible to advance on an entrenched LMG squad without losing your force to the LMG and suppression. It has gotten so bad that HMG teams just really are not useful. Why build the team when all of your regular squads have them, minus the movement penalty.
I agree with nick: all assault infantry should be immune to suppression for a limited amount of time. It should be built into all doctrines that rely on assault units. Smoke grenades could also do with a range buff, as the throwing range is pitiful right now. Assault squads should be able to plant smoke in front of LMG squads (who should not have grenades btw, to stop them from just being able to throw into smoke, and counter assault squads) and run up for win.
Maybe people would use more barbed wire then… but yeah.
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I agree on you two, your last paragraph summed it up good DeathKitty.
However this is offtopic for this thread, but this might be opened up in a new one.
Back to topic, one more thing, IS2 have limited time inf suppression, so tiger could have limited time unsuppression, like office charge, but I wrote this in the opening.
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