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With the release of patch 3.1.8, we draw to a close the first two factions that we have been modding since 2017. While we begin work on the British faction we will also be working on an overall balance pass to the OKW and US factions.
What we’re looking for:
- Overpowered doctrines
- Under-powered doctrines
- Overpowered/underpriced units
- Doubling up of units in a particular doctrine/obsolete units
If there’s something you think we have missed an important balance issue then please do make sure you mention it.
The focus is predominantly on PvP balance, but if you think there is something that the AI is abusing then we would like to know… that being said… we know about the planes!
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right now i think US artillery’s wolverines are a tad bit OP, with them being both artillery and anti tank, and relatively cheap at that as well, not to mention becoming better AT in the form of jacksons in case you need that. id say make the wolveirne indirect fire barrage unlock 4 CP instead of 2- it sounds like a lot but it really is quite a strong ability, imo. to keep the total point count at 32 you can reduce the CP cost of divisional and battalion artillery unlock by 1 because those are a bit overpriced, regardless of their power, especially when the 1st 2 unlocks are 3 CP total which is also expensive.
another option would be making the barrage not a default ability, and having it require a upgrade to each individual wolverine to be usable.
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I have a couple issues:
In general, veterancy needs to be looked at for units like 502nd Jager, falls, Old crock, easy company, maybe rangers. At higher vets, elite units take so little damage, even from units designed to counter infantry like the luchs which does “peanut damage” to elite airborne units.
Maybe a buff to luchs damage?
Factions like armor, infantry, and maybe iron should get a manpower building so they can scale late game and replace their losses. for the US factions you can use the base buildings like you used the base building for artillery and the bunker for IW.
IW roadblocks should be free, and the pak emplacement might do well with going from 480 to 400 manpower. they should give this doc some strength in defending their positions from rushed armor while under mortar spam. Also the flak emplacement could use some more damage resistance. It dies way too easy.
decrease the CP to unlock rangers from 4 to 3, and the cp to unlock assault rangers from 3-2, combine medal of honor with assault vest and give the riflemen part of infantry doc actually some good abilities. My idea is:
Rifleman ingenuity > supple cache > repple depple > leadership
Rifle ingenuity would be something like the field craft of the engineers/arty doc, letting rifles build some sort of light emplacements, for, like 2-3 CP, supply cache could give riflemen some new equipment like shotguns or something similar or even unlock the automatic bar the rifles currently get when platoon command post is finished, repple-depple unlocking the manpower building and combine Replacement Depot and rapid deployment, leadership giving the captain squad some extra men, the commission ability and some good auras. The current abilities are very weak and boring.
I know mongalong has a lot of great ideas for armor, but i just would like to again suggest to have a manpower building and add a few changes to the production part of the doc, turn it into:
fuel dispatch > american war machine (combines the reduced time and cheaper tank upgrades)> Tank Support depo unlock: the tank depo gives you access to the wet storage upgrade and makes the manpower tick go up.
I just think some US doctrines and Iron will should get more manpower, b/c of how they play, as it would make them more balanced and is historically realistic (IW is a doctrine that has units from many different nations, so more manpower, and the US is the US), but to tie it to a building/unlock so a faction cant just floor the early game with a bunch of units.
That’s all i got for now.
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In general, veterancy needs to be looked at for units like 502nd Jager, falls, Old crock, easy company, maybe rangers.
There’s two ways of looking at this… one reduce the effectiveness of the veterency gained – no more “super soldiers” or alternatively, make those top two tiers a lot harder to achieve – making most units able to get to tier three with ease but the tier four and five is much more of a slog – effectively making the veteran guys really “earn” those last two stars. The playing field will stay at the three star level for longer.
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[quote quote=6222]I have a couple issues: In general, veterancy needs to be looked at for units like 502nd Jager, falls, Old crock, easy company, maybe rangers. At higher vets, elite units take so little damage, even from units designed to counter infantry like the luchs which does “peanut damage” to elite airborne units. Maybe a buff to luchs damage? Factions like armor, infantry, and maybe iron should get a manpower building so they can scale late game and replace their losses. for the US factions you can use the base buildings like you used the base building for artillery and the bunker for IW. IW roadblocks should be free, and the pak emplacement might do well with going from 480 to 400 manpower. they should give this doc some strength in defending their positions from rushed armor while under mortar spam. Also the flak emplacement could use some more damage resistance. It dies way too easy. decrease the CP to unlock rangers from 4 to 3, and the cp to unlock assault rangers from 3-2, combine medal of honor with assault vest and give the riflemen part of infantry doc actually some good abilities. My idea is: Rifleman ingenuity > supple cache > repple depple > leadership Rifle ingenuity would be something like the field craft of the engineers/arty doc, letting rifles build some sort of light emplacements, for, like 2-3 CP, supply cache could give riflemen some new equipment like shotguns or something similar or even unlock the automatic bar the rifles currently get when platoon command post is finished, repple-depple unlocking the manpower building and combine Replacement Depot and rapid deployment, leadership giving the captain squad some extra men, the commission ability and some good auras. The current abilities are very weak and boring. I know mongalong has a lot of great ideas for armor, but i just would like to again suggest to have a manpower building and add a few changes to the production part of the doc, turn it into: fuel dispatch > american war machine (combines the reduced time and cheaper tank upgrades)> Tank Support depo unlock: the tank depo gives you access to the wet storage upgrade and makes the manpower tick go up. I just think some US doctrines and Iron will should get more manpower, b/c of how they play, as it would make them more balanced and is historically realistic (IW is a doctrine that has units from many different nations, so more manpower, and the US is the US), but to tie it to a building/unlock so a faction cant just floor the early game with a bunch of units. That’s all i got for now.[/quote]
US infantry already has replacement depot, and iron will got the fuhrerbefiel that gives you extra manpower income for no cost, although i do agree rangers could use a bit of a cost reduction.
also, the pak 40 emplacement iron will gets, maybe it should have APCR rounds aswell as/instead of having its price reduced to 400manpower. maybe make APCR default :P? but that might be OP
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One of the things that I would like to see across all factions/doctrines is a raising of the total CP from 32 points to 40. This will allow a greater flexibility in costing out the 16 abilities, as it stands right now, for every point you have over 2CP then you have one ability that MUST have 1CP. There’s no way around it when there are 16 abilities and 32 CP to spend.
Adding an extra 8 CP into the mix would allow for a variation of pricing among different doctrines for the same unlock – for example: PZ IV H/Sherman 76 can cost 1 CP for one doc and 2 for another.
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[quote quote=6240]One of the things that I would like to see across all factions/doctrines is a raising of the total CP from 32 points to 40. This will allow a greater flexibility in costing out the 16 abilities, as it stands right now, for every point you have over 2CP then you have one ability that MUST have 1CP. There’s no way around it when there are 16 abilities and 32 CP to spend. Adding an extra 8 CP into the mix would allow for a variation of pricing among different doctrines for the same unlock – for example: PZ IV H/Sherman 76 can cost 1 CP for one doc and 2 for another.[/quote]
this is the best idea ive ever heard EVER 😀
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After playing some games with the new patch, I feel like I’m seeing so much AB and arty from US. I feel like these doctrines can do too much. AB has so much great infantry, engines with shotguns (this NEEDS to go), old crock, easy company… in addition to having 2 nukes (rocket run and Mitchel)
Arty is similar: great arty, proximity priest, long tom/BD, jacksons, captured 88, great infantry in the form of the engineers.
Inf and armor are seldom seen I feel. Could we actually reduce the manpower rate for arty and AB?
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Hi guys, thanks a lot for your feedbacks, lets see:
a. I dislike the idea to remove units. I personally prefer to balance them like the Old Croc
b. .50cal maybe we could move it one tier up and use the .30cal instead
c. CP max to 40, I am ok with the idea and we could try to do it right now, because if we do it in a future will be a lot of reworking job.
d. Pak 40 emplacement, we are working in a possible substitution idea for it.
Feel free to continue posting balance problems, we are working hard again to have a good hotfix soon as possible.
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Hi guys,
Just thought I’d pop in and have a read after getting several hours of the US arty under my belt. I’m sorry about the wall of text, there’s a TL;DR at the bottom.
Obviously US arty are little too powerful in their current form and will need toning down a little bit. I’m sure you guys have thoroughly discussed that so I won’t waste time thinking or talking about specific changes. Please remember this moving forward, I am in agreement that US arty is a tad on the strong side right now, but maybe not as much as some people are saying.
I want to mention a couple of things for us to keep in mind when discussing this, just to provide some extra perspective when thinking about the overall health of the game long term.
[quote quote=6243]After playing some games with the new patch, I feel like I’m seeing so much AB and arty from US. I feel like these doctrines can do too much. AB has so much great infantry, engines with shotguns (this NEEDS to go), old crock, easy company… in addition to having 2 nukes (rocket run and Mitchel) Arty is similar: great arty, proximity priest, long tom/BD, jacksons, captured 88, great infantry in the form of the engineers. Inf and armor are seldom seen I feel. Could we actually reduce the manpower rate for arty and AB?[/quote]
This is what I wanted to mention, sort of. Something that really needs to be clear moving forward is the long term power level goals of each doctrine in Wikinger. I wrote about it extensively in my other big post where I talked about the “3 point system” that helps to visualise the relative strength of doctrines.
I am not talking about small tweaks. Small tweaks to the cost of things has nothing to do with macro level, long term relative power level of each doctrine. It’s about the options as a doctrine has and how effective they are at doing certain types of things while still only being one doctrine. Armour, Infantry and Indirect Firepower are the main categories.
What we’re seeing here with US arty is a doctrine that is capable of going toe to toe with the best OKW has to offer, because of how blatantly powerful it is. Like Death_Kitty mentioned, they have access to a lot. They have indirect firepower options coming out of their ears. If we apply the 3 point system to them I would say 1 infantry point, 0 armour points and 3 or even 4 indirect points. They do fall well above what I would consider “strong enough”. However, that pretty much falls exactly inline with 3 of the 4 OKW doctrines.
Therefore: Even after small tweaks to the cost of certain parts, are they really overpowered? Or is it possible that they are just the most powerful doctrine on the US and they can compete with wunderwaffe regarding overall power level, thus making them feel overly strong for a US doctrine?
The issue of “number of powerful options” might not be completely with US Artillery alone. The Armour and Infantry doctrines falling short might be a better place to look and start thinking on a “4 point system” instead. As soon as a 4 point system is adopted, only 3 doctrines in the game fall short (US Amour, US Infantry and OKW Panzer Artillery).
Indirect fire doctrines are huge pain in the bum to balance though. At the same time, I’ve heard from you guys that you don’t want to go around in circles buffing things so they’re inline with everything else, until we have DOTA 2 where everything is so overpowered that it becomes balanced. Which is obviously a good policy, however it means you need to have a very clear idea of when a doctrine is “strong enough”.
TL;DR:
Regarding macro level design, just like US Airborne, the US Artillery doctrine seems perfectly inline with OKW’s relative strength.
Is that a problem with US Arty?
Or is it that Armour and Infantry fall short?
Or is OKW’s high power level is forcing the US doctrines to become stronger over time when trying to balance the game from a macro level?
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A nice statement @LynustheJok3r , but a lot of your 3/4 point system is invalidated by certain abilities. Why do you need armor if you have 2 airstrikes that can kill them in 1 hit, and more munitions than you can possibly spend b/c you don’t need fuel. Same with arty doc. Perhaps paratroopers and engineers should also cost fuel to prevent such ability spam. Someone has togas up those planes and halftracks… 2 of the US doctrines cover their weaknesses with support powers so well they don’t have weaknesses. This makes them actually stronger than OKW docs, while infantry and armor are worthless inc comparison.
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Some balance changes in the actual beta:
- Old Croc: Increased price to 520MP and moved one tier up
- Moved all .50cal one tier up
- AEF and SVT get now .30cal by default in early game
- Increased the 291 Combat Engineers call in price: 450–>500 MP
- Change CP of Artillery Pak 43 unlock: 3–>2
- Change CP of Artillery M-10 indirect fire unlock: 2–>3
- Limit Scott x2 unit max.
- Limit Airborne Paratroop Riflemen x3 squads.
- Removed healing aura for Airborne beacon.
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regarding the whole mod:– all elite units are imo way too super-soldier-like, especially when they’ve got their vet “cough cough” airborne doctrine “cough cough”, they need to die faster since they are also just humans– something that applies only to annihilation: I actually don’t know how to fix it but the number of games that ended in a tie is just too high. The problem starts after a specific period of time, everyone has access to his most powerful units (which is obviously ok) but somehow the game becomes static. If you lose your unit you just call it in again. If your enemy loses it he does the same. Maybe it’s because of the amount of tanks you can get and that inf-warfare fades into the background, since the non-elite units just get shredded by the amount of tanks they have to deal with.regarding specific units:– I don’t think I need to talk about Old Croc etc.
– Radvecheeky explorer company, you really need to get rid of this pinning effect– Vickers, this cone of fire needs to be adjusted– Luchs needs a buff-all the light vehicles (221, 222, etc.) need a buff or something that makes them more usefull, it’s a shame that they don’t get used-mortar unit of the US artillery docrine needs a nerf, since they destroy everthing-Hans Rudel needs a buff -
What mortar is OP ? Maybe you are talking about: pak howitzer 75 off map artillery ?
About the rest:
a. I am agree with the light vehicles in early game, that why moved all .50 cal one tier up as a first step
Artillery changes:
. All artillery off map in game now has the same requirements than in map
. High artillery caliber artillery like ML-20 or Hummel now is on tier 4
. Massive barrages units and abilities are now on tier 4
. 88 to 105 mm artillery is now on tier 3
f. I will check Ruddel
g. Personally I dont think Luch needs a buff, is my personal point of view
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i agree with previous statements about suppresion.
also, right now theres a couple of hcanges i think should be made to some artillery units ingame. right now the iron will su-76 and wolverine are very similary- both TD’s with ability to fire artillery. however, one requires munitions at first and the other one doesnt, which seems a bit off. maybe if the su-76 didnt take munitions it would be more used as i just see most people rush the T-34 as iron will. i think the su-76 could also use a slight price reduction in terms of manpower, and mayyyyyyybe fuel- it gets 1 shotted by a sherman 75 in my experiences, so its AT worth isnt that great.
also, the presence of the wolverine makes the m8 scott sorta useless- its expensive lil bugger that only fires 75mm HE, which is pretty much identical to the wolverine ,but no AT capabilities, and limited anti infantry due too lack of machine guns. if it had a price reduction, and maybe make it so its locked along with the priest in the same CP ability, just to make the priest unlock more worthwhile for long-ranged smoke, which is sorta lacking in the US artillery line up.
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[quote quote=6287]cough You really need to get rid of elite units don’t give a damn about a MG in front of them and still get in range with their flamethrowers. aka suppression. ASAP And I mean this bloody serious.[/quote]
[quote quote=6290]I second ordo here. The only unit that should be able to break suppression is rangers with heroic charge. THATS IT.[/quote]
Veterancy is too easy to get, if it was much harder to earn it would make the reward much more relevant.
Right now this is how many points it takes to get to each level
- Vet 1 – 800
- Vet 2 – 1200
- Vet 3 – 2400
- Vet 4 – 3400
- Vet 5 – 4600
We can look to make levels four and five much harder to achieve to make these “rewards” much more valuable. Or we can tone down the rewards.
I know Olhausen doesn’t seem keen to eliminate the super soldiers, but I also know it is a source of contention for many players, especially because regular soldiers become null and void in the late game compared to these supermen.
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[quote quote=6293]
cough You really need to get rid of elite units don’t give a damn about a MG in front of them and still get in range with their flamethrowers. aka suppression. ASAP And I mean this bloody serious.
I second ordo here. The only unit that should be able to break suppression is rangers with heroic charge. THATS IT.
Veterancy is too easy to get, if it was much harder to earn it would make the reward much more relevant. Right now this is how many points it takes to get to each level
- Vet 1 – 800
- Vet 2 – 1200
- Vet 3 – 2400
- Vet 4 – 3400
- Vet 5 – 4600
We can look to make levels four and five much harder to achieve to make these “rewards” much more valuable. Or we can tone down the rewards. I know Olhausen doesn’t seem keen to eliminate the super soldiers, but I also know it is a source of contention for many players, especially because regular soldiers become null and void in the late game compared to these supermen.[/quote]
For the love of this mod, please…
Down with the super soldiers!!!
Delaying the problem is not fixing it. (which is all raising the vet XP does) They should not be able to avoid so much damage to begin with. The received accuracy at high vet levels needs to shoot up a lot.
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[quote quote=6295]
snipFor the love of this mod, please… Down with the super soldiers!!! Delaying the problem is not fixing it. (which is all raising the vet XP does) They should not be able to avoid so much damage to begin with. The received accuracy at high vet levels needs to shoot up a lot.[/quote]
i agre- delaying it by making XP required even more will just delay the inevitable. i think super soldiers are alright , but the 1 thing that REALLY needs nerfing for them more than anything else is there supresion resistance. i mean, maybe 1 vet 5 squad should be able to get within satchel range of a singular MG by sprinting straight at it , but 2 MGs with overlapping fields of fire should be able to pin down _ANYTHING_ that just charges blindly at em, whether it be riflemen or vet 5 airborne engineers
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Ok, Lemme sit down and write this all down,
How in the name of god Can Fusiliers, out perform SS Grenadiers which are first off all more expensive and more experienced Compared to russian fusiliers,Grenade DMG and Supression needs to be worked on,
MG Rework due to them at this stage being especially on the german side kinda Meh, the MG34 takes WAY too long to supress compared to the Maxim counter part,
Rework of the Veterancy Bonuses,
Super Soldiers Yeah that needs working on they are wayyy to strong like
Ol crook,Overlay we need to look at MP cost to other counter parts For example Grenadiers VS Riflemen, just an example,
Those are my main concerns and russians in General need a massive nerf they are way tooo strong, Especially shock army Snipers team with 120mm mortar, And no weaknesses
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I’m starting to get turned off from the mod by the amount of “nukes” on the allied side. Like I’m avoiding playing the mod b/c i know its going to involve AB, arty and russia, and its going to involve the marauder and arty. I hate how those 2 doctrines seemingly always have the munitions to call down air/arty strikes that always kill my units, like KT. I seldom lose KT to anything but marauder anymore. the elite infantry are also horrible, as i like playing docs that don’t have them: IW and armor, and my infantry always seem outclassed.
I hate how IW can’t counter early mortars, I hate how many no skill nukes there are right now. Rocket strike= free dead tiger 90% of the time, no use building hq trucks forward anymore b/c marauder. And the most frustrating think is i don’t think it can be balanced, b/c no matter what, it will come. you can delay the unlock by raising command points, raise munitions, make cooldown longer, but it is still OP in the end. AB was supposed to be a doc with a big weakness in that it had no tanks, but with its airstrikes and infantry that does not matter.
I HATE how normal infantry don’t matter anymore. You want a tank/elite inf/mg/ANYTHING IMPORTANT killed/capped, if you don’t have elite infantry, your SOL.
And when you put both arty and AB together, I just want to leave. Rage quit. Every time you stop, arty. Every time you make tiger: airstrike. Every time you try and take point, those bloody engineers show up in their half track with flamer, or old crock comes, or even airborne engies with that OP shotgun. Burn all you infantry, immobilize you tanks, kill you emplacements, your trucks… Monga wanted some arty feedback so here it is:
- the m8, m10, black dragon, long tom, priest, 75mm battery make for WAY TOO MUCH ARTY. From a doc that down not really need to build tanks, they ALWAYS have fuel to convert to munitions, so they can always bombard. Even with over half the map under US control, the priest can still hit targets from the US base, or just outside of it far too often Oh and the 88mm gun also can barrage, nearly forgot!
- The engineers are ridiculous. The flamer, and the medic make them soooooo hard to kill. when they hit high vet, impossible.
- Why do the trapped log barricades become AI controlled when you build them (at least VS ai)
- for a doc that already has great arty to kill tanks (and 88) , giving jacksons is a bit excessive.
- due to that damage of the 57mm emplacement even on the rare occasions when it pens even when you use the special ammo, I hereby declare it useless.
- Combine this with AB in the same game and the “support” options are just silly. The game becomes cancer.
*sigh* that was angry, i know. I’m also going to add i have not seen the m8 Scott in action, I hope you guys fixed the accuracy from beta b/c if not… that thing 1 hit squads every time you used its barrage. Hope this was changed.
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Here my notices since the last Update:
Overview, which doctrines made the most damage:
US: OKW:
1. Airborne 1. Fallschirm
2. Artillery 2. Wunderwaffe
3. Infantry / Armor 3. IW / Artillery
Generally:
– IS-2 can kill a whole Squad with only one single shot (too strong)
– IS-2 destroys a Tiger I (heavy tank) with a single shot, while the KingTiger needs 2 for a Sherman (medium tank)
– only the Opel Blitz can transport heavy MGs; Allies can’t
– Opel Blitz have 5 open slots for Infantry, Allied trucks only 2
– Flamethrowers should make all the same damage. It’s not logically that f.e. the 291nd Engineers can suffer more damage made by a flamethrower than other units.
– Generally the range of strength of all Intrantry units is too high and is even expanded by veterancy. Allies have much more ‚Elite‘ units than the Germans
early game:
– Allies are extremely fast to rush the field (easier for US than OKW)
– Over all US Infantry is stronger than german in combat
late game:
– ‚Wunderwaffen‘ like KingTiger and Jagdtiger are neutralized in combat because of the US Air and Artillery abilities ( rocket Strafe, B-26, Red Dragon ); Rocket Strafe and Red Dragon should not destroy a KT, JT and Elephant completely; there must be a counter against the B-26 ( for example: the use of AntiAir makes it impossible for B-26 to bomb this sector; at the moment there is only the base, where these Heavy Tanks are save of being bombed; I think there must be a possibility to neutralize a sector of being bombed by B-26 )
Airborne:
– 5 ‚Supersoldier‘ Squads are too much (perhaps instead of 2 x 82nd Engineers only 1 x Squad)
– in my Opinion the Infantry is stronger than the Infantry of the ‚Infantry doctrine‘
– perhaps move Shotguns from 82nd Engineers to Rangers Assault Squad
– B-26 is too strong in lategame; can neutralize the effect of German ‚Wunderwaffen‘ (heavy tanks)
Artillery:
– ‚Black Dragon‘ destroys a KingTiger with a single shot (too strong)
– Engineers too strong
– Limit of Jacksons to (perhaps) a single tank on the field
Freiwilligen:
– normal Infantry too weak against normal Allied Infantry (that’s not historically accurate; there were a lot ‚fanatics‘ in the SS and fanaticism is one of the most powerful abilities for Infantry)
– Double click on a single Squad will choose all units, but not of one type.
– Panzerfaust needs much time being fired
– reinforcing takes too long. It’s not possible to use the ‚Shift’ key by creating a queue of several commands, because the control of the unit goes over to that one which is reinforced. The Shift key could help a lot.
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– Double click on a single Squad will choose all units, but not of one type.
Quick note on this @tyranus – if we remove this, all group sprint/prone/grendes disappear too. It’s one or the other, we’ve made it so all combat units are grouped together, leaving out basic engineers and snipers primarily.
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I’ll agree with tyranus with most of what he said. would it be possible to create a unit (maybe vampir) to set up in a sector and turn it into a “limited base” sector, where airstrikes and arty can’t attack?
I agree with a lot of his infantry feedback
I don’t agree with limiting Jacksons. They die in 1 hit to tigers, so 1 would usually die vs a tiger, ect. If anything, remove the ambush for it.
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Sry for my English firstly
Need to :
– Give common infantry for OKW (Not from doctrine), because it often happens that people think about doctrine and lose time in the early game
– Add limit for US Airborne squads from Doctrine (82nd Engineers and Infantry : 1 squad of Engineers and 1 squad of 82nd infantry)
– Reduce the amount of 82nd infantry squads (3 Squads of elite infantry for 850 mp and in one call? Really?) And give them some specific weapon maybe (marksman for squad or LMG)
– Add Puma for OKW (Because Axis NEED something that can counter Stuart and other vehicle in first 10-15 min, especially on maps with open fields or replace Pak43 to T3) -
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To buff IW, or what is the intention behind this?
If so I’m actually not sure if this would help a lot. Most of their abilites are locked behind the techtree iirc. Also they wouldn’t help a lot, besides helping to build up a few early defense constructions, since they are unarmed.
Sure their HHL 3 could help against tanks, but a Panzerbüchsenschütze would help more in the early phase of a match.
I mean yes , you could do it but I just don’t see the advantage of it atm. At least not in the way I looked at it.
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the idea is so that IW can entrench earlier, digging trenches and sandbags, b.c lets be honest, unless they are in green cover, IW infantry fall apart real fast. That’s the main idea. they are cheap, so they should not delay any major builds too much.
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Here some thoughts about two major topics:
Most of the balance problems is due to the Infantry structure and weapons with enormes firepower.
Infantry structure:
Basically there are two major groups of Infantry: the Basis (for example Rifle Men for US) and the ‚Upper-Class‘ (for example Old Crock). (Engineers, Snipers, … are building other Groups of course).
In my opinion there is no big focus on the difference of these two groups right now. It should not be the qualities in direct combat (man against man) that make the difference, it’s the special abilities that the Elite Units have (and the Basic soldiers even not). We all know, that the mod gives the Elites a lot of specializations (and I love that).
So what’s now the problem. The Elites have also an outstanding power in combat and life points, that makes it nearly impossible for basic units to stand up to them (in direct combat).
I think that most of the players won’t recruit these Elites because of their special abilities, but rather because of those combat abilities. You only have to send your Old Crock to the direct frontline, and he will make meat of your enemy troops. Just be a bit cautious that not all soldiers of your Old Crock will die, so click the retreat button early enough. That’s the reason why basic units have no use for the player in mid and especially in late game. The mod throws so many units away in mid and late game, that could bring much more diversity to the mod.
But lets have a look back to a real battlefield. The normal soldier represents the fundament of direct fights on the frontline. Both factions have to pay the price to send and lose a large number of poor young unexperienced foot soldiers, the normal infantrymen; but only the faction will win, that is the best in using the abilities of their Elite Units. And I think that these rules of war must rejoin to the mod. You are sending your basic Infantry to the foremost frontline, a lot of them will die, war is terrible. They bring the fundament of your army. But you will always have a special view on your Elites, they will bring the change in battle, so don’t lose them. We want predominately to use their special abilities, not their firepower in men against men combat. An Elite is just too valuable to be scorched as a foot soldier.
So here my questions: Why are units like Old Crock and the Command Squad from the Infantry doctrine so powerful in direct combat? I want to use their specializations, and won’t treat them like a normal foot soldier. When I think about Old Crock, I see an high experienced old Veteran, which major advantages are his abilities to enthuse the normal Infanterist. I think that all Command Squads should not be so powerful in direct combat.
The 82nd Engineers could be more used in infiltration than in rushing the enemy from the field. The Ranger Assault Squad is the right one for it. Let them do the job.
There should be a balance between special abilities on the one hand and firepower/ life points on the other. If a Squad has specializations, it should be reduced especially in firepower (and reversed).
The Elites bring one big advantage to the mod. The game can get a small touch of a RPG.
The most headache I get is from Airborne at the moment, because there are 5 Elite Squads that have specializations and extreme combat force. I would change the 82nd more to an infiltration squad, Old Crock as a Supporter for all Basic infantry (who gives them fighting spirit) and the Easy Company as Assault troops for the direct combat. The abilities of the player in combining and supporting these units will bring the victory. Right at the moment all of these troops have nearly the same role, they have specializations, enormes firepower and life points. Combining isn’t so important right now as it could.
When I am playing Airborne I would only recruit Rifles at the beginning to conquer. Later, they have no uses for me anymore, there are so many Elites who can do almost everything (and everything better). And there is no high argument to chose the Infantry doctrine anymore, because all you need in question Infantry, you can get in Airborne right now (combined with so many powerful airstrikes).
Weapons with enormes Firepower:
The basic advantage of the game should be, that there is an existing possibility to respond on every used weapon. (easiest Example: Anti Tank against Tanks – Combat Infantry against Anti Tank – Tanks against Combat Infantry). The problem with ‚weapons with enormes Firepower‘ like B-26 Bombing, Arado and Red Dragon is, that there is no such cycle which gives the player an ability to respond. OKW has a large disadvantage because of there mobile base structures. Especially on smaller maps the degree of efficiency of B-26 and Red Dragon rise ad infinitum. The Arado can’t be used against the allied ‚Inner-Cycle‘ (and that’s fine!).
Tanks like the KingTiger becoming more and more to a vulnerable kitty, if you are playing against Airborne (and Artillery, but in a smaller extent). You always have to observe it, because you can’t afford to lose it while, because of this focus, the enemy gets an advantage from your new diversion made by the KingTiger. Such units are becoming more and more a burden. It’s a pity!
The mod loses a lot diversity by those Super-Weapons. In case of the B-26, sometimes the player only needs two simple steps to finish a whole match. (1) Sending a recon flight, have a look where are the best targets (Base or Heavy tanks) and (2) launch your Marauder. That’s not at the appropriate rate to the depth the mod is giving in other spheres.
As an old BK player and new Wikinger fan, !please! have a higher focus on diversity in question of the cycles!
(So, where is the forum to post positive statements about the new doctrines? I have so many of it, not only negatives… 🙂 )
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Ok guys, first sorry for the late answer. I always read the comments and I tried to implement changes taking in consideration the feedback of community. Ok here we go:
@ To all:
The super elite infantry will be nerf for the next beta and I buff the basic and semi-elite infantry.
a. Reduced the hitpoints bonus during vet up for all level 5 super elite troops. Units affected: . Ranger Assault team
. 101 Airborne Easy company
. Commando SAS . Stobtruppen
. Shock troops
. Fallschirmjager Regiment 6
. SS Jager
. SS Charlemagne
b. Increased the experience points required to reach level 5 by 30%
c. Basic engineers and sappers of all factions now get hitpoint bonus when they vet up. In this way those troops will be no so crapy and they will get a decent vet up bonus. Troops affected:
. Germans Pioneers
. British Sappers
. American Engineers
. Soviet engineers
. SS basic Freiwillingen infanterie
. SS Bulgarisches
. SS Freiwillingen Grenadier Urgan
. SS Luftwaffe pionere
d. Added level 4 vet bonus to Wehrmacht Grenadiers and Soviet Motorized Fusiliers
- Infantry health at vet 0:
1. All doctrine bound units get 120 (before has values between 80 to 160)
2. All common units get 100 (before 80)
3. All squad leaders get 160
4. All officers get 200 (before 240)
5. All officer guards get 120
6. All medics and vehicle crews get 80
7. Snipers get 100
8 . Unarmed troops like mechanics get 80
- Also, we implement some changes to improve the Iron Will:
- Extra slot for all his core infantry
- Kommando Bunker allow weapon upgrades
- Kommando Bunker can be upgrade to medical station
Other important point is around artillery:
- Reduce the criticals generated by them specially the artillery between 88 to 105mm
- Moved the off map artillery to the correct tier to avoid abuse on early & mid game
- Massive artillery like B4/Katyusha/Long tom/etc is now available in the last tier
- The ammo exchange is now more expensive to avoid abuse. The actual ratio is 200 amm per 200 fuel. In the past we have 200 ammo per 100 fuel.
@ Ordo & Dead Kitty:
Yes, we need to give normal infantry basic construction abilities like sadbags and so on. Sadly this will required sub menus. It is the list of things to do and we will move on them when we get some time for sure
@ Tyranus:
Thanks a lot for you good feedback, you have good points and I am working around them. One thing that I feel we need to change is the weapons of tremendus firepower. The only problem in this point is, the limitation of Coh2 tool. Personally I prefer another new unit instead a big bomber or things like that. Maybe the best thing will be to avoid those Dooms day ability for the next doctrines and try to find a better solution.
About your idea about moving the shotguns to rangers, is mostly related to the historical facts. Basically (as I know) shotguns were not allowed in WW2 battlefield and germans executed the soldiers who carry them. But some airborne troops equip those weapons because were more easy to carry them during the jump.
About limitations for artillery doctrine: we worked hard to balance the doctrine.
. Jacksons limit x2
. M10 limit x2
. M10 indirect fire needs unit upgrade and unlock on tech tree
. 291 Combat engineers limited x1
Also, for the next patch we did changes to the vehicles crew. Basically we removed the decrew ability for:
. Call in units
. Super heavies and heavies limited by number
. Doctrine bound units limited by number
This will stop the abuse doing decrews. Instead of decrew, those vehicles will obtain a repair ability at vet 1.
About King tiger vs Shermans, yes you are right maybe we need to tweak it.
Again Tanks a lot for the feedbacks, regards Olhausen
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Artillery:
In my opinion there are some problems with the base-bombing issue. Right now there are several artillery-units that are able to fire on the enemy’s main headquarters. I played a match last week, and my antagonist used several artillery units to create a constant bombardment on my headquarters. Especially in annihilation, this can result in a monotonous match.
After a while of constant bombardment the match can be finished, because there are no possibilities to repair the buildings of the headquarters. Engineers will die in Artillery fire and there are no other options to repair your buildings, prevent it of being destroyed and the resulting defeat.
In my (arrogant) opinion the match should be decided between the headquarters. At the moment all off-map-Artillery can’t be used on the headquater-sectors and that is great. Now my suggestion is to disable all on-map Artillery units attacking that sectors, too. On small maps (especially 1vs1 matches) this base-bombing is a large problem (in my opinion), and on larger maps, matches that are not yet completely over, the use of artillery on the headquarters will make it often impossible for the faction with the inferior position to come back in the game and (perhaps) change the situation on the battlefield.
I made the following experiences with these Units that are making the most base-bombing right now:
1. Su-76
2. Priest, Sherman M4M3
3. Caliope, Stuka zu Fuß, Maultier and Katyusha
4. LeFH18, 25 Pounder, 152 and 203 mm Howitzer
5. Land mattress
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Base bombing has been a problem for as long as I can remember, long before COH2 and Wikinger. The current system relies on an honour code to not “base bomb” unless you are winning and just want to finish off the game quickly. Unfortunately not all players stick to this or are simply not aware of it.
We will look to mod in a compromise on your suggestion, on field arty can still attack the HQ territory but only if they have line of sight. A similar mechanic to the precision barrage but it will apply to all barrages in the HQ territory only. This should simulate an end game scenario where the enemy is at the gates and the game is all but lost. If you are getting artied in your base then you must try to neutralise any spotter units.
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HE is still an issue for me. Early Shermans have unlimited use of it (one time activation). They can kill a whole Squad of the best Infantry by one shot. Even the SdKfz Anti Air gives the enemy the possibility to retreat his Infantry. I am fine with the good anti Infantry abilities of early Shermans, but now it’s too strong and too low prized.
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@Deadth Kitty yes I added it for the new version
@Tyranus I tweak all HE rounds in game with new and fresh values, sadly I have no more time for beta testing. Lets give it a try in this new version and do more tweaks for the next version
Also I can not modify the artillery in HQ sectors but I will do it for the next patch. Sadly we ran out of time.
I will publish the version in a few mins, I hope you enjoy it and thanks a lot to all ouf you to help us to do Wikinger better.
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<p style=”text-align: left;”>hi, a little suggestion here, based on my exp so far, can you give some at capabilities to western front (tier 2) IW guys? Because the itty bitty at gun they have is kinda weak against anything with >4 wheels. Instead of scratching shermans, it just kisses them and flies off. And pak emplacements are static, and can’t even rotate, so they are kinda useless in open maps. Pfausts, need a truck which gets rekt even if a feather falls on it. Also, the t34s that they do get after lot of res banking, come with half hp, needs to get repaired and gets rekt by shermans.</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>I was playing this doc like infantry doc (pe from coh1), but the inf is so weak, it gets shredded even behind grees cover or in a house! Playing against us, my inf always gets insta supressed, and then rekt. Its not like you can just retreat them and reinf, which would be nice, but you have to unfocus from combat just to reinf these guys.</p>
Since germans don’t have much inf focus, i would love to see this doc more like inf focus, like coh1 us rangers.But even though this doc is so disadvantageous its still fun.
Also if its not too much to ask, can we get 1 tiger which is better than shermans, instead of 3 which are so terribly weak and requires lot of banking. And move the p4 to tier 3, its useless by the time tier 3 gets build. And heavy panzer ability takes a looong time!
I usually win with inf with my sparring partner who plays tanks heavy, but I only loose in this mod.
Thanks for this awesome mod 😀
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Hi mate, about your request:
a. I/W Pak 40 yes you are right, I will change this for the next patch
b. I/W infantry get a good buff for the actual patch, I will check it and see what I can do
c. Tiger tank: I will check it but take in consideration Tiger was inferior to Panther historically talking. Pather had supperior speed, armor tickness, weapon and turret rotation.
Thanks a lot for the feedback
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right now, minor issue is that churchil is available a bit too early- i think it should be behind hammer tactics unlock of british, because gettign it at the same time the best AT SS can get is a pak-40, which cant pen it ,makes it pretty hard to deal with. especially once it has HE rounds and can then counter AT guns and infantry pretty well.
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