- This topic has 12 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
<h1> Die Feuerwehr </h1>
The new Wehrmacht doctrine is pretty good, and in my opinion can definitely compete with the other although its not top tier by any means.
The doctrine from what i can summarize focuses on early assaults and skirmishes with light vehicles and mechanized infantry, mobile defensive tactics with medium tanks, and late game combined arms pushes with a Tiger ace as your trump card.
<h3>Notable stuff</h3>- Panzer 4 J. Costs 260MP/45 Fuel,
- put 2 doctrine points for a free tank commander that combines the effects of spotter scopes (2x sight when stationary) and increased xp gain + gun accuracy that you can switch at will for an MG 42 gunner. Also gives any new Panzer 4s instant vet 1.
- 1 point gives a mounted 30 muni smoke launcher and S Mine launcher
S Mine launcher needs the P4J to be in commander mode to activate, tank also cannot dismount crew in commander mode. - 3 points gives it a free toggle APCR round with more than 150mm of pen but at the cost of increasing reload times. With this upgrade, the P4J is a credible threat to heavy tanks.
- Von Manteuffel
- has access to recon, smoke drops, and those ridiculous 3 plane air strikes
- <b>infantry </b>deals a ton of damage with proper weapon setups.
- Light vehicles remain viable later in the game, with scouting abilities, buffs, and infantry support transport capability with 251s.
- Brummbar
- your one hit wonder assault vehicle, actually has the heaviest armor in the entire vehicle lineup you get, but still pretty poorly armored. HEAT round with 195mm pen can rekt any tank with 1 shot provided you get the drop on them.
- Tiger E “Hans”
- doesn’t come with a tank commander or top gunner, so it actually has worse sight and anti infantry suppression than your P4s
- Trades the top gunner and commander for a parachute flare (this thing is actually better than a binocular as it reveals a huge area and ignores LoS) and when you have Manteuffel on the field, a nebel barrage (12 rockets if i count right)
- Mobile, but fragile for a heavy, gun is best vs mediums, needs APCR active to consistently damage heavies
- GD Panzer Grenadiers, GD Pioneers
- GD Pzgrens has a weird weapon setup, cosisting of SMGs, LMGs, rifles, and a shreck, theyre good at all ranges but suffer massive firepower loss with member loss.
- GD Pioneers has access to an extra flammenwerfer at vet 1. but other than that havent tried them that much yet.
- KV 1 Bergepanzer
- an AoE repair (unit needs to setup first) that is pretty rapid.
- can recover German vehicles for a flat cost of 60 fuel. is actually a loss for P4s unless youre really short on MP, used more for heavier vehicles. Recovered vehicles loses all abilities and vets
- is extremely cheap (240MP/ 35 fuel) and has the armor and HP of a KV1, so it can be used to bait shots and tank hits for your P4s, careful as it has no defensive abilities
- Leichter Pzspahwagen callin
- gives a puma and a 221, both has binoculars, the 221 has to be stationary and out of combat for 5s. the puma is instant.
- your only counter for an early game stuart, AA HT, or greyhound at long range (aside from them making a mistake for you to shreck, faust, or hitting a mine)
<h2>Weaknesses</h2>
- Early game infantry engagements, when your infantry doesn’t have their weapons and are stuck with K98s, you essentially have the worst infantry in game and the most expensive.
- Early game light vehicles (jeeps, AA HT), your best and only option is the Puma call in, other than that youre gonna have to get creative
- Panzer 4 J
- extremely slow targeting speed, slow reload speeds, very sluggish movement and handling for a medium tank, poor armor, and very inconsistent gun accuracy.
- best used at long range with the camo ability as its ready as soon as you deploy it with commander
- this is the reason why mid game is best spent employing mobile defense tactics with the P4J. Set them up camoed at key point watching potential attack spots, and when they do attack, you do not keep them in position, kite them back, let your infantry screen and kill theirs, and do not persue.
- Late game heavy vehicles. youre relying on a single tiger to take the brunt of enemy heavies, while the P4s can support, they wont last long.
- Overall fragility of units.
- Lack of a holdout option, you can funnel enemy movements with the standard tank traps and barbed wire, you can setup semi permanent defense with basic trenches and bunkers, but this is not viable and not emphasized. a mobile defense tactic work best with this doctrine.
- The most glaring weakness
- Lack of a proper offense tool in early to mid game
to put it simply, if you let the enemy take the fuel point and fortify it early, YOU LOSE THE GAME. - your mortar HT costs 450 MP to deploy , while manteuffel and his powerful support abilities costs 6 CP to purchase, along with a hefty munitions cost after. Your Panzers dont have the HE damage to dislodge dug in positions, and you need to wait for your Brummbar to really to so. The Stubby Panzer 4 may be an option if the enemy havent really setup that much stuff, but if they do, you will lose before you can deploy your heavies.
- Lack of a proper offense tool in early to mid game
- Let me know on what you think……
- Panzer 4 J. Costs 260MP/45 Fuel,
-
Here is where I would put the current doc structure in terms of tiers:
OP tier: US and CW armor
Strong tier: IW (only reason its not OP tier is b/c it’s hard to play), Wunderwaffe, US infantry, US arty, CW arty, Lowland, Mechanized
Viable Tier: Scorched Earth (OKW early game holds it back)
Weak Tier: Luftwaffe
UP Tier: Combined Arms, US airborne.
You do have a very nice offensive tool midgame: its called the flametrack and pio call in. Rips through any infantry without anti-tank. Kills buildings. You can bum rush a base and de-tech someone who is not ready for it. This doctrine needs aggressive handling early game; with MG’s and StG, panzer fusiliers and grens MELT allied infantry, rifles especially, and can hold off elite units. Without their weapons, put them in a building and they will murder allied infantry anyway. Or keep them at max range. But they are FAR from the worst mainline infantry in the game. With the Puma, AT rifle, and shreck, you are more than equipped to hold off light vehicles.
Panzer 4’s with vet 1 will hit most of the time, as for the other gripes: just as sluggish as the M4, thought much less maneuverable than the Cromwell, inferior to the E8 and the Comet, no stabilized gun, so worse accuracy on the move… Its just a tank that you need to use defensively, then chase down shermans as they retreat.
Combined with getting out panzers as fast as armor can get shermans (if you use the 3 fuel cache build) and the tools to fortify are more than there. The main issue here is surviving the tank spam from the 2 allied armor docs. The answer is called a Pak. Seriously, build some sandbags or hedgehogs, 1-2 paks, set to ambush/target vehicle, and let the kills roll in. Use your tiger to deal with problems, like Pershing/Churchill/Comet.
If anything, armor needs a nerf. But this doc is fine
-
-
My main gripes with Pioneers and flame HT is short range and vulnerable to 50cals. Other than that, your P4s are going to be delayed, and if you do this and don’t base rush immediately, you lost the game as the enemy rolls out cromwells or shermans.
You need 50 fuel+ 60 fuel to tech before you can even roll out your light vehicles, by that time the enemy already has AT guns and a lot of .50s, not a lot of room to maneuver with your Halftracks and only a couple minutes away from shermans.
Due to the cheap price of the P4s, your fuel is fine, your MP is not.
Again, I haven’t tried them that much, so I don’t have the full picture of them. Take this with a grain of salt.
-
I’ve been pretty happy with the doctrine so far. The early infantry are powerful. My main complaint is the uber weak light vehicles. The US AA half track (and many others) seem to melt the puma and scout car in 1-1 fights. Allied MGs seem to be more effective than German ones at knocking out light vehicles too.
What’s your unlock order? I’m generally: halftrack -> panzer IV gren call in -> manteuffel (sometimes before P4) -> P4 general build.
I occasionally go for the scout car and flame half track, but as you said the weakness to MGs make it risky. By this time I generally find the allies have 50cal and AT guns, so I’m not really sure how to use them effectively.
-
Alright, I discovered one thing you need to do with this doctrine.
<h3>Skip T1 and go straight for T2</h3>
This isn’t even something I realized you can do until I watch Sturmtruppen.My new CP order is Puma 221 call in first, as this allows you to have wheels on the ground at around 4-5 minutes, and the puma simply dominates other light vehicles
I also skip the HMG team in favor of G43s. Your biggest threat at this point is 6 pounders and AEC.
<span style=”text-align: center;”>Around 8-10 minutes, I get the Flammpanzer pioneer unless it’s an extremely open map. Then grab all P4 upgraded except for the PzGr 40.</span>
This is an extremely aggressive early build that shifts into a defensive mid game with P4s. Capitalize on your very big light vehicle and infantry advantage and hit cutoff points and wipe squads with the flametrack. even pushing into their base and killing a building is pretty feasible with this setup, although you need to know when to shift to the defensive mid game stage.
I do agree with .50 Cals destroying light vehicles very quickly. The Puma can resist 50 Cals at mid long range frontally, but the other LVs can’t.
-
Any video in particular you’re thinking of? Will need to watch and learn. Took a peek at game 63 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5KJgpGTH4) seems he lost the Puma early on.
I suppose this will also handle the Soviet half track abilities? So far I was finding my best counter were grenadiers with the AT rifle. (also curious, is the AT rifle an upgrade that makes infantry on infantry weaker?)
-
I never used the AT rifle upgrade, since I just let my Puma handle all enemy LVs (up until Stuarts)
The Puma is the second best LV in game, with the AEC being the only better one (because it has a medium tank gun), as long as it’s not in close range, the Puma can kill any other LV. Remember that it has a very slow turret turn speed.
Pzgrens Shreck upgrade is significantly better.
I do not recommend getting AT Panzersjager teams because they use a weaker rocket than the Bazooka. A single shreck on an StG Pzgrens squad will be enough AT deterrent while having decent infantry killing power.
-
Guys, that AT rifle grenade needs a little nerf. I think it would be better if it would be an ability used for free after the squad is upgraded with it, but it should have a cool down, same as other rifle grenades.
I think this because they shoot it
a, at very long range
b, for infinitely
c, with a pretty high ROF
d, for free
d, and it just looks simply silly somehow, I can’t explain but it is a bit immersion breaking watching this -
-
@TankDoc_1985 About the HEAT AT gren:
a. The auto fire is like anyother at gun. Piats, Panzershreks, bazookas etc.
b. Codding a target ability bundle to the rifle in the squad will be tricky and sometimes the weapon ability will disapear because is bundle to the rifle and the soldier with the rifle could die. Then paid ability is not an option.
Possible solution if the balance is brake is a slower rate of fire and worst accuracy. Personally I feel ok and well balance. Whats the others think about it ?
-
I didn’t know that it works like a bazooka, but you made contextual bazookas for US airborne, maybe this gun could be contextual too, so one model would equip it if (light?) armor is range, this way they wouldn’t shoot at infantry and they would be also better against infantry.
Accuracy for it is fine I think, grenades can be evaded if the truck moves, but ROF reduce would be good, it would look more realistic.
-
Ok guys, first of all thanks for all the work u did with that doctrine. I played several games with new mech, so my impressions in some aspects may change to some degree.
First of all it is probably the most historically accurate doctrine so far. It looks indeed like a coherent fighting force, not like a patchwork of ideas. There is a good choice of icons, terms and models (well maybe the 1939 look of panzergrenadiers is a little bit dissapointing). It has also interesting and quite uniqe playstile and i think it’s a capable doc which gives a player set of tools for high initiative, aggressive play.
Like the previous mech(which i take for the reference for obvious reasons) it suffers highly in the late game, but the case is a little bit more complicated than before the patch. Old mech was practically a plain “direct combat” doctrine, free of artillery support (only with relatively weak stuka bomb – often unable to knock down a single tank, great against infantry blobs though). New mech has quite powerful set of tools to deal with enemy indirectly, which in my opinion is rather a good change. Also i appreciate removal of “ammo for manpower” ability which was too powerful and situational at the same time, it also didn;t match with doctrine character imho.
As i mentioned before new mech, like the old one, struggle in the late game, it has some new tools, but in the other hand it lost some powerful stuff. Lost of Panthers is painful, but it is somehow compensated by cheap and much more versatile than ever PZ4. However in the current mod state there is no way to deal with soviet heavy armor with such set of instruments.
Countering soviet heavy vehicles requires much higher skills than those of the opponent to be effective. All soviet doctrines have vehicles able to oneshot all but the heaviest of tanks(its the biggest mod unbalance currentlym thats the reason i made a separate topic about that case).
For the all changes, lost of Stormtroopers is the most painful to me. It was a uniqe unit, which offered ability to “deepstrike” the enemy cutting of crucial defence points with speed and precision. These new Panzergrenadiers are a powerful unit, but they are no match for the old Stormtroopers. The case is no raw firepower, but ability to be deployed behind enemy lines, and combination of evasive action and bundle grenade, which made them extremely effective, but micro, and planning demanding also. Moreover in linear tech tree their unlock was less painful than currently.
Generally speaking new infantry is very good, maybe regular Grossdeutschland Fusiliers could have a little bit more firepower( one more slot to pick some weapon at least, or not exclusive rifle grenade upgrade)
The new panzerpionieren with flamers don’t offer very much imho, they are leading to kv1 unlock wich is useless early on, so they will be rather deployed later in the game, when flamer halftrack will struggle to reach enemy lines. Moreover they don’t even have smoke grenade to cover their’s advance. 700mp cost is unacceptable.
I would also mention the fact, that new mech has no light armor available in the main building. I think that it would be nice to introduce some light vehicles in the similar way like in the Waffen SS.
I dont want to repeat something what is wellknown but, light vehicles needs to be buffed to some degree. I made a topic about a Puma once before so i don;t want to take all the issues out again.
I think that’s the good occasion to mention(i think that i made a topic about that too) that anti tank rifles are dealing way to high damage, they are more powerful than small antitank guns. They should do more critical damage, but less hp. Soviet at rifle can even pen front of Pz4J.
That was a bunch of my reflections connected with the new doc 🙂 Again thnx for all the work u have done
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.