Can AT actually A the T?

Ill give you a minor buff that allows suppression of AT teams if they try to rush you. IMO:

-An AT squad should never be able to run up to a tank from max range and kill it

-If a lone tank runs into an AT team in the open that is camoed, and that AT team break camo and charges it, that tank should take damage or die. This is called an ambush.

-If a tank with 1 squad of basic infantry runs into the above situation, then the AT team should be forced to retreat, if the squad has a BAR, Bren, or DP, it should die

-A tank or a group of tanks should never be able to just HE an AT gun from mad range before the AT gun kills at least one of them

-An AT gun should never be 1 hit by an HE shell, unless its of massive caliber or in red cover.

So long as those 5 things stay true, or become more true, you will get no opposition from me.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Death_Kitty.

idk about that second one death kitty. i think the AT squad should, in the proper environment, be able too ambush an tank. but it should rely on green cover- not just out in the open, or on literally any spot on the map, even without cover.

also, with how AT squads work – typically destroying tanks with one volley, it wont give allied squads a chance too support the tank. for example, lets say the typical axis panzerjager squad has a panzerfaust and 2 shreks. from camo, it can fire 2 shreks near instantly, then fire the pzfaust before infantry support can kill it or pin it. and aslong as the tank isnt inpenetrable frontally, the dmg too the health of a tank matters. the dmg a pzshrek do too a pershing, for example, matters much more than the damage bazookas do too a king or jagd tiger, if they manage too do any, due too the later having a very high chance too just take no damage from any other shells that come their way aslong as they face the right way.

point 4 is right,and should still be true after the change, but id still consider increasing deploy and/or undeploy time for the at guns or making them rotate in place less quickly. head on, they should beat whats infront of em, but not from the side. the AT gun crew is literally moving out of the way of the gun shield while they undeploy and redeploy. if it was possible, id think it would be cool if AT guns took extra damage when not deployed, too make em a bit more vulnerable alone or moving.

(sorry for my poor english its my native language)

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by 123nick.

So let me ask this: With what small arms are they supposed to fight off infantry?
AT infantry is a hard counter to armor, as the enemy (if properly forming a charge/assault) will have infantry support for their tanks. Even in WW2, they had to have infantry support the tanks, as the enemy would easily employ AT measures to disable and kill enemy armor. If you run a tank without infantry support, your asking for a world of hurt and misery.

Your infantry should be properly equipped to handle the enemy infantry and AT guns (should they be set to guard the tanks), meaning don’t gear them up for a “Well rounded” role, gear them specifically for enemy infantry.

This means :
US- M1919A1 Browning LMG’s, BAR’s, and rifle grenades (Or if armored, More BAR’s)
UK- Bren’s, and more Bren’s, as Bren’s destroy infantry
RU-PPSH’s, DP-28’s, Rifle grenades or at least 1 of each kit, cause one gets rifle grenades
GER-STG’s, MP-40’s, MG-34’s/42’s (Sprinkle some G-43’s in with your Großdeutschland panzerfusiliers for a bit of range)
Overall- Flamethrowers

As for the “They got infantry support, and its killing mine” part, then employ anti-infantry counters. All the doctrines (minus Iron Will) get mortars, so use them.
You can also smoke, barrage, or accurate strike with Mortars, and these do beautifully vs enemy lines. Snipers also work, they can pick off that AT gun hiding in that bush with ease, just don’t expect the enemy to not be able to counter it, they also work well as recon when you set them to not fire. You can also use your doctrine abilities to assault hard points, such as planes and artillery.

Planes are countered by AA, so either sneak behind their lines, and disable the AA (can be done with proper recon to find spots to slip through, or with a very lucky AT squad/squad-that-can-camo-and-take-out-vehicles) or use proper recon and artillery. Artillery is harder to take out, as your going to either need artillery itself, or to find where the enemy is calling it in from (Almost all of the call in points are vehicles, if not, its a bunker with a fixed range)

Everything has a counter, your never going to have a perfect charge with a unit that has no counter. Your success should be determined by your tactical prowess, ability to forward recon the area, properly plan your troops, and your ability to manage your push. If the infantry is rushing your tanks, pop smoke on your tank (Or use a mortar or infantry squad if your tank lacks smoke) and reverse the tank out of the zone, giving the infantry more time to pin, and kill the squad. Your mortars can assist with this.

As for AT guns, they are a direct counter to enemy vehicles and armor. Your not supposed to win a fight with it, your supposed to lose in a tank. This is for head on. Now, if you surprise it, and its facing the opposite direction, you should be able to pick off multiple soldiers manning said gun, before it turns around. If the issue of “They are still tanky even from behind” is there, then perhaps (if possible through the power of modding and the almighty devs) make them weaker from behind, not necessarily nerf the whole thing.

As for AT infantry, Your supposed to get screwed by them, thats their purpose in life; to kill your tanks. They can only hit you if your close enough, so back up when they get close. If you get ambushed (Ik its agreed, you get ambushed, you deserve to get wrecked), you get a few rockets in YOUR exhaust, and blow up. If you catch them in an open field, with multiple tanks, and multiple infantry units. They don’t stand much of a chance unless you got a pin break ability (Rangers lead the Way, For the Rodina, Oorah-with-satchels-that-don’t-do-too-much) if you have the distance, but if you rush into them, expecting your infantry to destroy them, your asking to lose tanks. If the next part to this is “They got AT guns”, then flip to page “Proper recon and mortars” for an answer.

Panzershrecks are designed to counter REALLY heavy armor, they were created to take down Soviet heavies, and whatever else they faced. They and the (just about useless, cause of range) Raketenwerfer, are the best rocket based weapons you can ever hope for at tier 1 (Panzershrecks being pretty much exclusive to Mechanized in this case).

As for what Tanks can do vs infantry; Swap to HE, and back off when approached by AT weapons. This does not mean, sit in one place and fire everything at the incoming threat, this means slam that thing into reverse harder than you slam your keyboard when you get destroyed by an AT squad. Your main priority for that tank, is to keep yourself out of their range, so distance is your friend.

If the question of “How do I know how far to be?” the answer to that is “practice with all the doctrines, learn the distances, and get a rough estimate of how far they reach”. If you fail to educate yourself on your enemy and their equipment, your doomed to fail.
Sun Tzu, The Art Of War (Suggest reading it, it helps!) : “If you know yourself and your enemy, you need not fear the result a hundred battles. If you know yourself, but not your enemy, for every victory gained, you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither yourself or your enemy, you will succumb in every battle.”

Tips for Allied armor players: Keep 1-2 75mm Shermans, T-34/76’s, Valentines/AEC’s (not suggested)/ Cromwells with HE shells equipped or available. These shells are are indispensable, and can do far more than just regular shells, as they have more AOE than a regular shell (They actually do a little damage to incoming infantry in the relative area of impact, rather than the game granting you a kill or two cause 2 models were lined up and ate the AP shell).

Tips for German Players: Panzer IV F1, if you can, if not, resort to 20mm autocannons on Sd.Kfz. 222’s, 251 flaktracks (Set up time is atrocious, but still a viable option), and Panzer II’s. F1’s with MG’s are the best thing to kill infantry, as you have 3 fast MG’s, and a beautifully-crafted-to-support-infantry-against-hardpoints-and-other-infantry-short barreled 75mm gun.

(To explain why they do so good vs infantry, unlike their long barreled counterpart, the video linked below is the closest I can find for explaining a good bit why.  The abbreviated science behind it is : The shell has a lower muzzle velocity, due to it shorter barrel, so it doesn’t burrow into the ground, allowing the shell to detonate closer to the surface, allowing more fragments to kill/maim infantry.)
*Fun fact*
Even as soviets, the last 3 vehicles I have named above, are all penetrated by that wonderful PTRS rifle you get, and can easily be killed by the lightest allied AT infantry faction (Soviets, with 40mm of pen with PTRS’s) there is.

The video with the proper section to start with – https://youtu.be/3VY10gfnrTQ?t=160

My thoughts exactly, well said.

As for the disparity between Bazooka’s and Panzershrecks, as stated by Nick:
The Panzerschreck uses a far larger rocket, with more power and explosive filler. This does far more penetration due to the larger copper cone, and explosive filler. The drawbacks of this increased penetration and damage, was that the rocket launcher was unwieldy when used without a face shield, and was slower to reload. The Bazooka was originally meant to counter Panzer III’s, IV’s, and perhaps Tigers. The bazooka was then later to be used to keep enemy tanks from overrunning infantry positions, when the germans started fielding heavier tanks.

In short, the Panzerschreck trades firing speed, and supreme accuracy for more penetration and more damage (The accuracy buff that you notice when the squad gets suppressed, is due to them being prone, which overall increases accuracy, it may be worth informing the devs of a possible bug). The Bazooka trades high penetration and damage for firing speed, and better accuracy.

And before its said “Panzerschrecks hardly ever miss” I have missed on quite a few occasions, and its always detrimental on how one rocket could have turned the tide of the match. Panzerfausts are also not Panzershrecks, Panzershrecks are designed to be used multiple times, not once! This is why they have a cool down, and Panzerschrecks do not.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by BWChief.

Nick, have you ever seen the low visibility of a tank periscope?

Little known fact, your vision is HEAVILY hampered by the interior periscopes, I have had the good fortunes to visit a museum during an event where I had to actually use a tank periscope to identify targets. The view is extremely minimal, and during movement, your going to fail to see a carefully camouflaged soldier who has been waiting for the time to strike.

“What if the tank is sitting still and they crawl up to it?”
The visibility is still poor enough, and the periscopes are set high enough in almost any tank, you will have difficulty seeing exactly what is on the ground.
Unless the commander is sitting outside of the cupola (Which in all seriousness, hes gonna be the first to die in that case, because he can potentially see you, and without him, they don’t know where your coming from) You have a good chance of sneaking up on a tank.

As for “How can he sneak with the big as hell rocket pack on?”
Its not hard to camouflage something with grasses and other things. I still do it all the time with just about anything. Its not hard to use a little ingenuity and string/rope to tie grass onto sticks or something.
Oh, and the Panzerschreck could be slung onto someone’s back, can carried that way till they reached the target, and once again, not hard to tie rope or string with grass on it (Or perhaps tie the grass/burlap onto the rope or string and wrap that around the tube?)

Now to get to your argument

To address the “Riflemen and Panzergrenadiers” argument:
Großdeutschland panzerfusiliers are more comparable than Panzergrenadiers. Panzergrenadiers are from tier 1, not tier 0. I find it funny that the complaint exists when you have to deal with having to wait till tier 3 for most german docs, or tier 1 with mechanized, to get rocket launchers, WHEN USA AND BRITAIN GET THEIRS AT TIER 1!
Seriously, the argument of “its only 10 muni more, and panzergrens get it at tier 1” is weak when only one german doctrine gets it at tier 1, and the whole factions of USA and British get it at tier 1 regardless of doctrine.

If we are to make the Panzerschreck and MG-42 a “Pick one” upgrade, then I want the British to have to pick either Bren’s or Piats, and the Americans BAR, M1919, or Bazooka. I would also want the MP-40 or STG upgrades to be available with one or the other, to offset the german reliance on the Kar-98. This would give the US riflemen Semi-auto’s and their pick, the Infantry sections Stens and their pick of the guns, and the Germans Kar-98’s, MP-40’s/STG’s, and their pick of the guns. In the end, it would still be uneven in the allies favor. The Semi-auto’s crush bolt actions upclose, the Enfields would suppress, and the Kar-98’s would fall behind without any upgrades due to half the mag cap of the Enfield, and the inability to suppress infantry with them.

The Panzergrenadiers get their pick of upgrades due to the costs they incur later in the doctrine. It is to offset the fuel cost, and to give them a fighting chance against the allies, who get their late game AT weapons at tier 1. Its also due to the lack of proper semi automatic firearms they have, and the qualities of their rifles (Before its mentioned, British get the infantry sections, who are able to get Brens, PIATS, and Stens to replace their Enfields. Their Enfields also suppress infantry, Kar-98’s do not suppress). The Panzerschreck at tier 1 is a good thing since they finally have the ability to destroy something bigger than a halftrack. Großdeutschland panzerfusiliers have difficulties destroying heavier tier 2 armor (Stuarts can bounce Granatebüchse rounds), and 45mm AT guns are too slow to keep up with the rapid movement of the mechanized doctrine.
I also am for them having infantry with Panzerschrecks, because the T-34’s can easily become unkillable through normal tier 1 and tier 2 means. Soviet armor can get mini KV-1’s by giving them STZ upgrades, it also can get an insta spawn KV-1 at tier 3 to obliterate infantry. So if you wanna counter that KV-1 or STZ T-34, good luck getting through the 120mm of frontal armor with your 100mm pen Bazooka (or even worse, 70mm pen 45 AT gun). Panzerfausts are also not a clear cut option, since they take far longer to cooldown, than it takes to reload a Panzerschreck. Not dismissing them, but they are not a “Kill-all” solution when it comes to armor. Especially if it actually manages to miss (Happens rarely, but the damage is still not enough to quickly destroy a tank while its rampaging on your lines)

In short, Now you see how it is for something to happen on an even level. US and Brits get AT at tier 1, and so do the German Panzergrens. This is why somethings need to be “Imbalanced” to maintain a semblance of balance.

the main difference is that the bazooka only counters the german mediums-  the panzershrek counters the entire allied armored forces. you do state a lot of good points that i agree with- for example, i think that since the russians get a tier 3 kv-1 freiwilligen can be reworked too have their kv-call in always grant a kv-1 at tier 3 and always a kv-2 at tier 4, for equality. im also for removing lee enfield suppresion- it doesnt really make sense for it too be permanent 24/7 and can lead too snowballing in the early game, especially when guns with faster rates of fire dont suppress as much (like the m1 carbine or garand), and personally i dont think any standard infantry rifle deserves suppresion. i also wouldnt mind if call ins were re-worked too cost fuel, and maybe have a delay before the unit spawns too alleviate the problem of instantly acquiring them upon tiering up. this should help alleviate the issues where the panzershrek is necessary, although really, if the enemy is tier 3 and your tier 0 or 1, you shouldnt be able too defend against them effectively. they need too get some pushing ability for tiering up- tiering typically has the purpose of weaking your ability too produce units in reaction too enemy forces in exchange for moving too being able too produce bettr units. its why i also suggest extending tiering times. but right now, the fact that the panzershrek counters not only tier 3, but tier 4 allied armor ,and no infantry ability really counters german tier 3 armored (assuming axis vs allies as always), its abit of a discrepancy in the late game, where panzerjagers can end up being literally free kills against allied armor (and no, infantry support doesnt really work when they can be tanky enough too get 2 shreks and a faust off, times 2 since the limit for them is two), only having too pay the small price of reinforcing, when allie players have too pay absurd ammounts for onmap artillery, or go for air strikes which may or may not target the right vehicle and also are prohibitingly expensive. i still think panzerjagers serve a purpose- but as defensive anti tank infantry too support  AT guns in close quarters (also can we nerf AT gun deploy and undeploy time so they are more vulnerable too flanking? for the bigger ones).

too summarize, i DO agree with you on a lot of the problems you say, but i dont think the answer should just be “panzershrek”. once a lot of the things you speak about are adjusted, and the need for pzjagers or upgradeable pzshreks as “necessary early AT” is eliminated, i think they too should be tweaked so they dont end up as just some hard counter for allies tiering up when you yourself are undertiered.