”balance” things for Arado and B26

Don’t just delete them, especially the Arado… I don’t care about the B26.

They are not “Army Delete Buttons”, only when you’re blobbing and in that case it’s your fault that you lose your army. It’s not the mods fault for implementing weapons like the Arado or B26!

I mean I have no experience on how to mod CoH, but I’m pretty sure that there is a way to “balance” them by changing Area of Effect, the amount of bombs they drop and their damage output. So maybe instead of deleting them tweak those settings parameters.

In my opinion they are fine, but if you feel like they need some changes, do so.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Ordo.

I recall number 2 being my idea, but I digress…

The planes you mention being gone from the game, while disappointing, was necessary with the current state of said planes. They were no skill ways to instantly destroy high priority targets, or end enemy pushes, and most importantly they had no counter. Not only were they broken for docs that need large amounts of units to attack, but also for doctrines with small amounts of powerful units. How many times is it just easier to destroy a pushing KT before it can reverse with a Mitchel than using the rocket strafe, or actually flanking it.

Not to mention what the Mitchel does to OKW trucks, or what either plane does to emplacements. You might smugly say “well just don’t build them together”, but when an arado destroys your 1 17 pounder in a section that’s holding back a KT, then… what? Because that that takes so much skill, doesn’t it? Losing you battalion truck to a B-26, Setting back your tech tree, losing access to valuable units, because that takes so much skill, doesn’t it?

How any times has an arado doomed how many Shermans because they took too long to reverse, or tripped up on one another with their pathing?

No it was just too easy, to powerful, to easy to direct, came in too quickly. And you think binding this to a unit will solve the problems with it? (figures. why would you have to bind 2 “balanced” units to a spotter unlike ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT IN GAME?) By my count, that solves exactly none of the problems above. It wont even make calling it in that hard. I mean, look, have the spotters for any of the arty docs made calling in arty harder? Not in any meaningful way. You just gotta make sure the spotter is in the right area. And remember to retreat/reverse at the first sign of trouble.

And keeping in mind the economy changes have NOT gone through, you want to make this thing (and the V1) cheaper?

m8. You cant be serious.

As for you point about “distinguishing” from the game, and the IS-2… If the bloody arado was the only “distinguishing” feature from this mod and coh1, then that is a grave insult to the modding team indeed! The amount of historical units, creative call-ins, wonderful custom animations, useful and diverse doctrines that put blitzkrieg to shame sets this mod apart, not an one silly, OP call in.

As for the IS-2, I wont bring up things that have not been reworked, like the Russians. But really quick, what counter does IW, Luft, Arty have against the IS really?

What if you do an allies vs allies game? What counter do Americans or British have vs the IS? Wunder is not a weak doc… the IS is just really strong.

As for the second idea, that may have some merit. The plane rushes across the field, drops nothing on anyone, but bombs players back lines, reducing income, or stopping unit production from a certain building. In interesting idea, that would eliminate part of the issue… but how would you target it? I mean if its a 4v4 game, and you pay how ever many munitions to deactivate fuel from all 4 players, that’s a bit much no? I like the idea, but the devs would have to be creative with the implementation, especially with choosing a target.

And I’m going to come back to the ridiculous notion of the “blobbing” argument… no I would define it as taking your entire army and a- moving it into your opponent… Other players seem to define this as just any large collection of units. But that would be stupid. Because some docs need large amounts of units in 1 sector to break through said sector. You need 2 prongs of a couple Shermans to break through Wunder, especially when the KT is involved. And when the arado is able to effortlessly destroy 1 prong? No. That’s not blobbing. that’s just cheap.

And as if that were the only tool you had! Arty, mortars, MG’s entrench infantry. Anti tank guns, other tanks, plane strafes, AT ambushes, mines! All of these punish A-move game-play. You don’t need an army eraser to stop blobs… And if that’s the only way you know how to stop blobs playing as wunder, of all docs? There is not much I can say.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Death_Kitty.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Death_Kitty.

Usually I’m above personal attacks… but who exactly would I be trolling, ordo? You? I am merely passionate about this mod, and i think removing the arado and b-26 was a good change. This is based on my gameplay experience, both winning and losing, both with and against these aircraft. But lets get 1 think out of the way:

“Don’t just delete them, especially the Arado… I don’t care about the B26.”

Based on your posts, the discord, I honestly doubt you have played very much of US at all. I suspect you play doctrines with high quality, borderline OP units to the point where you mistake “3 units with one order and moving close together” as a blob. I suspect you are used to sending 1-2 units to clear up any issue. With how broken luft and wunder squads are, that does not surprise me. And please, don’t give me “they are balanced” crap. I’ve tested them. If gerbirgsjager with enough vet get in green cover fast enough, they can 1v1 a 50 cal in green cover and win, losing 1 model. Among other such situations…

(to be fair, okw tanks are actually pretty fair. its just the infantry I have an issue with. not to say commandos/ranger/airborne are any less egregious, but this is not the point)

“Even the “no skill” thing . . . Arado and B26 are like fire-and-forget weapons, without the homing issue.. aka Skill, since you need to adapt your enemies next move in order to make it hit.”

-Really? stuff like this makes me think that you are amazingly out of touch. lets go over this. you have, roughly 5 seconds before a called in aircraft appears on map (tested). You have then, roughly 2 seconds before the arado’s payload hits (tested). Until those 2 seconds, you have no idea which direction the plane is coming from, and if you were in your base, or elsewhere on map, you may have no idea which units its targeting. Or if its even a unit you control. Assuming you guess correctly, or try to pull everything back… you may have to deal with vehicles pathing stupidly, or getting in each-others way, or getting hung up on map props, so on, so on. What skill do i use here, the one where I read my opponents mind?

“Most of your arguments apply also to a lot of arty, airstrikes etc. Most of the Airstrikes are no-brainer. Wtf even Arty is a no-brainer. Both of them are late game call-in abilities, they cost a shitload of resources and have a long “reload time”.”

-False equivalency. Arado is nothing like arty or other aircraft. Other aircraft can be shot down. Other aircraft, with very few exceptions, don’t do lethal damage. Out of the docs that have been reworked, only the p-47 has bombs that do this much damage, and rockets that can kill heavy tanks. The bombs damage radius is small enough to easily dodge, the plane can be shot down, and the rocket strafe is easy enough to deal with: as long so it does not solely target 1 stationary vehicle, it wont kill it. If you move you vehicle, even after the strike has started, it will usually live, with a sliver of health (assuming tiger,KT, which usually get rocket runned). Not only are aircraft vulnerable, they lack the destructive potential of the bombers.

It is nothing like arty. Arty requires infrastructure. It requires a spotter or actual unit on the field, sometimes both. Spotters, if they are not where you need them, need to be moved into position, taking time. same for independent arty pieces, like the priest. If they are, they need time to radio, or to adjust for coordinates. Even with all that, they do not drop all their destructive potential at once. It is closer to damage over time. Usually when shells start landing amongst your forces, but you have time to move out of the way before the main barrage lands. Every so often, a massive shell will direct hit your units, causing grave damage. It happens. But arty lacks the control or the instant destructive power of the bombers.

Not to mention, the doctrines that posses the most destructive of these examples pay for them dearly. Airborne lacks any late game armor, arty suffers from an extremely weak early game, scorched earth lack heavy AT, and eats munitions at a truly frightening rate, Canadian arty is bound to static structures, which are vulnerable and take time and resources to build. Lufts strikes lack destructive power. Infantry strikes are random or lack range. The mighty calliope serves as Armors only strike, and gives fair warning of its incoming, has a short range for arty, cost hell of a lot o muni, reloads forever, does not do damage to heavy tanks in abundance. So on, so on. Even the b-26 is less egregious. Make no mistake, it is op, but the low amount of units fielded by okw docs mean its easier to maneuver them out of the way (less stuff to trip over each other), with 12 seconds (tested) before its bombs reach target.

But the arado… it is perfect. It is neigh invulnerable, comes quickly and with little exact warning, and unleashes all of its destructive precision at once with the precision of a scalpel.

“I could write on and on and on (e.g. emplacements, blobbing (3 units with one order and moving close together are a blob), Your sherman’s that are somehow too slow, Arado/B26 being the only thing to stop blobs, etc.)”

emplacements: need to be close enough to support each other. If they are far enough to be immune to 1 arado strike, I would argue there is a range where I can hit, say a bofors gun without agroing its distant 17 pounder AT gun with a tank. Ignoring that, you only need to kill 1 emplacement. Then just target the other with that which it is weak to. (bofors with tank, 17 p. with infantry.) This is not the only thing emplacements are weak to, but it is one of them.

Not to mention what the b-26 can do to OKW trucks. at least you can shoot the p-47 down.

My problem with Sherman’s is not that they are slow. Its that they are in coh2. Namely, they have this games pathing. Also they are tanks. They accelerate slow, they turn slow if moving slowly, sometimes they path weird… i mean come on, you have to know what i am talking about. Also, because they are Shermans, you need more than one to get stuff done. Often a couple once late game german stuff gets involved. They tend to trip up on one another, so you have to micro them individually, or in pairs. In combat with armor, my APM tends to shoot to the high 40’s. That’s more that 1 action every half second. Making tanks are turned the right way, microing infantry, changing ammo, using abilities, making sure tanks path around each other correctly, reacting to whatever my enemy does. Arado comes in 7 seconds. If i have a blob of tanks in combat, not necessarily close enough to all die, or even more than 1-2 to die to arado, its impossible to tell which exact tank called out the strike. Its also impossible to know which tanks are at risk… that tank behind, or next to it? depends how arado comes… which i will know 2 seconds before it hits.

finally arado and 26 are not the only counters to blobs. Infantry blobs: mortars, arty, emplacements, MG, strafing runs. All of these cause mass suppression/pin. Stops push without killing much, except for arty, but that again you can retreat infantry as soon as first shell hits.

Armor blobs: tanks, AT infantry ambushes, AT guns, mines, roadblocks… not that armor blobs happen that often.

“I need my bunch of units in order to make this doctrine work” offensive they should be on the move. If you get hit by it then your enemy was smart and was able to know your next move.

-Your stupidest point for last. At some point my units have to stop. They may run into AT guns or tanks i thought were somewhere else, I may here a rocket strike coming, my supporting infantry may be suppressed, they may just have to go stationary to fire at the remaining units once the big cats get scared off. You know, because firing at infantry on the move works so well. They may be repairing outside my base, far away from the front line. because guess what, on large 4v4/3v3 maps, I’m not going back to my HQ sector to repair. 1 scout plane across the half them map, then 7 sec. later the arado comes. Sure there is warning, but there is little reason to flinch my entire army the second a scout plane comes over. IF its a normal plane, I will shoot it down. Always put an AA half-track where i repair. If its rockets, ill hear it coming and move. If its arty, ill see the shells and move. Whatever the reason, my units are not going to be constantly moving, never still, for fear of arado. They should not have to be. No other okw doc requires that kind of caution. Even if its my fault for not seeing something, there should not be that much of a punishment, especially if i don’t over-commit to a failed push. Often I get nailed while repairing, or reversing out of an unexpected encounter, sometimes while hung up on buildings, or even waiting with my tanks for my ally to put down some support, or for my next air-recon.

How many times have i screwed up so bad with wunder by losing KT, or one of my big tanks and could have lost were it not for the arado. How many times have i felt cheap for destroying a repairing tank with Mitchel or arado. How many OKW trucks have been destroyed just because it was easier than to penetrate the well made defenses protecting it. It is so much of a crutch playing with it. Not just a horror to play against.

7 seconds. that’s all arado gives you. its not enough. I don’t play perfectly, and for the amount of minor infraction this plane can punish, it takes no skill to use. It cant be countered, it comes to fast for any “skill” to take effect

“Yeah pretty sure you’re trolling.”

Yeah, more than pretty sure you are out of touch.

Yeah, more than pretty sure you have no idea how to play docs like US armor

Yeah, more than pretty sure you are biased towards a certain faction/playstyle.

To Ordo:

Understand this: This mod is one of the best games I’ve played in my life. I love it. I have immense respect for the developers, I can see all the effort they put it. Read this post. This is not trolling. This is a commitment to offering good feedback, good arguments to give more information to make the mod better. It is my point of view, responding to yours. If you cant respect my point of view, at least respect the care I show for yours, by responding in such detail, and for the effort I put in. Don’t just blow me off and call me a troll. You know, earlier I wrote a sentence telling you you were not worth my time. I took it out. You are. You are worthy of enough of my respect to respond in this much detail to your, what you must admit, not very complex post. I will continue to respond with this level of detail and commitment, because this project is worth it. You want to debate, fine. Please do. I’m open to new arguments, I’ve changed my mind before. You want to offer compromise, discuss alternative (as i have), ill be happy to saw out a solution together. You want to tell me that : “Your “Problems” aren’t problems.”; call me troll: sod off. you are not needed here.

I will end this post here. The decision on removing these bombers was made and that’s the end of this. Thanks for understanding.

Regards,
Ragnar