Home Forums General Discussion Suggestions Remove heavy pinning from all grenades.

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    • #12266
      Lüng
      Participant

      This one is a bit big for me to suggest, as this mechanic is huge in wikinger. However its huge, because it allows the user to deny entire flanks, sides, etc.

      Here’s my thoughts: Heavy pinning on grenades is not a good mechanic, It turns early game into a “hot potato” match that doesn’t rely on winning the battle more than just forcing the opponent to retreat due to the pin mechanic.

      MG’s will rely on rapid fire to get soldiers pinned. If the soldiers do not crawl further away, they will be hard pinned. This is fair because, you do have a pretty good indicator you’re about to be suppressed by the 5 seconds of light suppression before you hit heavy. With grenades, this is turned on its head. From what I’ve noticed: Unit’s do not scream “GRENADE” when a grenade is thrown, When a grenade hits there’s a high chance you are heavily suppressed. The heavy suppression radius as compared to the light suppression radius, is far larger.

      What happens here is, someone tosses a grenade, you don’t move or, didn’t move fast enough, and your whole squad is now rendered invalid as someone proceduraly shoots you whilst you’re hard pinned, thusly forcing you, to retreat, or lose soldiers needlessly, because your soldiers don’t know how to get up and shoot. This is reminiscent of grenades just being an MG ability in your pocket. Whilst throwing a bunch may cost a lot, munitions in wikinger are a primary resource. You could take 2 fuel points, but if you don’t have 2 munitions points, you’ve lost. They do everything. Penetrate and kill vehicles via AT abilities, force entire flanks to retreat due to heavy suppression, upgrade your troops with better, bigger guns to scare your opponent off, give you MG’s, Mortars… ETC, ETC. So essentially, grenades can just take you out, for not aggressively watching all your units and mashing the Z key ASAP to evade a grenade. This is silly.

      Grenades as is, currently make sub factions like “Static infantry” for Wehrmacht a “meta” faction. This is because their grenades have the largest range, and will still heavy suppress you. Static Infantry, is defensive. Why are they being used so offensively? Oh right, grenades. Talking to other community members, a lot of us in the discussion wanted to see grenades just be damage dealers. Currently they can do quite a number if they hit you, however their current use isn’t that at all. There’s many times where CoH2 pathfinding can just, screw you over due to your soldiers not moving how you told them to, or forming a neat orderly line and moving. Did you know you can have an entire squad pinned currently, just because the guy in the back of your formation, was pinned by a grenade? It doesn’t make sense.

      Personally, I would rather see grenades provide light, suppression. This way they are more tactically used versus just being flung all over because “retreat grenades”. It’s either change it to light suppression, or just remove suppression all together. Grenades as is, when compared to vanilla are, Silent, leave behind a white tracer, don’t give you an indicator where they are, Don’t show you a timer, and can just overall devastate entire pushes due to one little grenade. The blob punishment is fine, it’s just the fact that, they simply can invalidate entire troop sections.

      CQC troops can be completely removed from the equation by one little grenade. I can invest 100 Munitions into SMG’s for my luftwaffe pioneers, but if my opponent pops a grenade slightly off to my right, all those SMG’s on my pioneers are now useless. And I have to retreat. Grenades should stick to dealing damage, and punishing blobs. Currently they punish you the player in general, especially newer players (My friend hates this mod, just because the grenades can full pin him) because they just occur. They’re a fact of life. Fighting for points is not won by bloodying your opponent, or almost wiping his squad. It’s won by whoever lands the grenade after both you mash the sprint key. It seems like an obligatory waste of time and serves to do nothing but take the commanders focus off of everything else, because you have to eye down the grenades just to evade them.

      TLDR: Grenades are a player punishing mechanic, that serve only to be a “retreat mechanic” in your pocket. They are not used to deal damage, as compared to what they should be used for. They are simply used to be abused. No longer do they punish blobs, they punish entire squads, just to fight for an early objective, or take a munitions point.  I would rather they stick to dealing damage, or doing light suppression instead of Heavy suppression.

    • #12269
      123nick
      Participant

      note- for anyone who reads this, i made another reply with my updated thoughts on the matter.

       

      i wouldnt mind grenades going too low suppresion, but i think if they do they could probably be reduced in muni cost, since then idk if they will be worth their current costs. i think it could help give some CQB squads some breathing room. and, just for the record i think this could only apply too standard nades. the more unique stuff like, say, the blendkorpfer and WP, are sort of based around their strenght and are few and far between, so they can remain as is. also, the grenade tweak could also apply too rifle nades aswell, just incase it wasnt obvious.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by 123nick.
    • #12270
      Gamecks
      Participant

      I’m pretty sure units that are just suppressed rather than pinned take less damage from enemy fire. Why would you ever throw a grenade to give your enemy a literal buff. I don’t feel there is a good solution to this at all honestly.

    • #12271
      Death_Kitty
      Moderator

      Grenades are a player punish mechanic. As they should be. They are also a player rewarding mechanic. OP aims to essentially nerf them to the ground.

      Grenades pinning units is a reward to throwing the grenade at the right opportunity. And contrary to the post above, there is plenty of time to respond to the issue: you could walk out of range once you notice a squad coming in for the throw; you could sprint out of the way one you notice the wind-up animation. Even if you sprint only after the grenade is thrown, there is a chance you get suppressed or just take some damage. What you are suggesting is that squads should be able to just eat grenades… what is the point of that?

      Either the grenade has to pin the squad, or it has to outright wipe multiple models, if not the entire squad, and I don’t see OP being happy with that option either.

      Why am I spending 35 Muni, delaying LMG upgrades or giving up HMG squads so I can *maybe* suppress or damage the target squads (b/c although OP says it is difficult, people can and do dodge grenades. and on a personal note, I don’t usually have to “hammer” the zed key. I just calmly press it once, and usually avoid the pin). Unless OP wants grenades to also get cheaper? So that now instead of 1 nade, people throw them more? To wit:

      If you suppress the squad, it can’t sprint, so what are people going to do: they are going to throw another one, one that will force a retreat, or destroy the squad, because if we are even going to remotely consider a nerf of this caliber, nades’ will have to be cheaper. So here we are, back at square one. So you either make a pointless nerf, or make grenades worthless. Thus would bring the meta into any squad that can cast suppression at long distance AKA LMG’s, making those more prevalent than they already are, making gameplay static and boring, unless you want to remove suppression from those too?

      Second, there is no situation where a grenade pin is not the responsibility of the player who suffers it: At tier 0, where is you attention? It should be on your main push. Maybe you have 1 squad split-pushing somewhere else, and if that runs into the enemy main push, or you just lose focus? Tough luck. If you look away from your main push, and find your opponent has naded 3 of your squads… what were you looking away for? It’s tier 0!

      If he nades your solo squad, too bad. It happens. But you are notified when an off screen squad comes under fire, and shooting always predates grenade throws. So…

      Later in the game, there are mitigating factors that make grenades have less impact: veteran squads, more weapons thanks to upgrades, vehicles. So this is only really a tier 0 issue.

      Now OP mentions docs being meta because of grenades. Unfortunately, that sentence is grammatically incorrect. You see, the word doc plural instead of singular, because only one doc has grenade issues: SID, as mentioned. This is cause by the increased radius of the grenades making them undodgeable. So nerf them. Problem solved. all of the other grenades are fine.

      As for the accessibility: They really are not as free and spammy as OP would lead one to believe. You see, by using grenades, you give up a tier 0 HMG team, and you delay upgrades to your units at tier 1. So you do give up something.

      The assault team point about units with SMG: it is a good point, and the OP pinpointed the issue correctly, but failed to correctly pinpoint the cause. The issue is not grenade suppression; the issue is suppression in general. Assault units cannot ignore the hail of fire coming from: LMGs, HMGs, vehicle mounted MGs, and, yes, pre-thrown grenades in the squads path, and thus have struggled to find a place in the current climate. Notice, OP is complaining about the most skillful of the above methods, as grenades throws to stop assault squads requires micro and attention, unlike the other 3, which only require positioning in the right direction, or even less. Grenades are not an anti-blob device. Their radius is not big enough. If you somehow have more than 1 squad pinned by 1 grenade, that is on you. Not that any of thee above is relevant, b/c you know what you will do if an assault squad gets suppressed or damaged by a nade? retreat it anyway. Unless you want SMG squads to be able to power through such damage and kill the opposition anyway? (considering OP specifically whined about the strength of assault partisans only a few weeks ago, I doubt they would be satisfied with this solution) Also, lets not forget that grenades are also a tool for assaulting infantry. The sword cuts both ways.

      One more interaction that this nerf would remove: HMG’s would no longer be pinned, so would be able to fire their MG after eating a grenade. This would allow HMGs to be used as an offensive weapon, with whoever gets the first HMG into position essentially winning the fight, and all future fights, until mortars or light vehicles come out. Which, I’m sure most people would find to be far more brainless, one sided, and frustrating game play than grenades are right now. This behavior is demonstrated in the below screenshot using an MG-34, and in fact the squad of hostile sappers were suppressed, but had recovered. If an HMG does not demonstrate this behavior, it is a bug, and should be reported as such. Link to screenshot:

      https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2050178365

      One more point OP made that I need to rebut: so you captured both fuel points, but your opponents got both muni points, and beat you, so… what is wrong with that?!

      Muni is more valuable early game, not only b/c of nades, but because of tier 1 upgrades like LMGs. But in the long run, if you control both fuel points, you will out tech him and win. (What can you buy with muni at tier 1 and 0 vs what can you buy with fuel at tier 1 and 0. Unless you want to overhaul tech. And that is not going to happen.) The solution is to build a muni cache and move on (and if your argument is: “Well why do I need to spend 200 MP on a cache and he doesn’t?” My answer is: “because if you do your job and defend those 2 fuel points you probably overextended to get, he will need to build a fuel cache later. Or lose.”)

      TL;DR Nerfing grenade in the manner described is, to quote OP “silly”. It removes counter play from dug in machine guns (because those were really struggling) , dumbs down the early game to where units with better shooting stats will carry tier 0 (because riflemen, grenadiers and jager were really struggling in the current meta) and creates problem while solving literally none. If you are losing games to early pins due to grenades, you need to become better at throwing your own, or better at reading animations and running away.

       

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Death_Kitty. Reason: Typos. Probably left some
    • #12273
      123nick
      Participant

      tbh…. on second thought, idk if this will make any big effect unless as apart of bigger changes. if you got suppressed, you still arent gonna be combat effective enough unless you have like a great difference in unit quality, and the suppresion from bolt action rifles would prob be enough too keep you suppressed anyways. the main affects i see from this changes, comes from the fact that you can take a grenade and still be able too throw a nade since ur suppressed, not pinned, which i am in favor of . but then again, now its harder too cover armored vehicles against inf assaults since a grenade just suppresses so they can still use AT abilities, which im NOT in favor of.

    • #12278
      Lüng
      Participant

      Mmm walls; I will try to respond in chopped up segments.

      “I’m pretty sure units that are just suppressed rather than pinned take less damage from enemy fire.” I feel you may be correct on that statement, however the aim of changing grenade suppression is to overall punish less as hard just for landing one single grenade. Currently if you land a grenade you are awarded by completely crippling whatever squad you hit, unless a smoke grenade is hit, or you are outnumbered. In most cases, if you hit, that squad now has to retreat away.

      “Grenades pinning units is a reward to throwing the grenade at the right opportunity.” I feel this is a yes and no. It seems, too rewarding. When I wrote up the post it was more of a rant, however I have a counter argument to build it on and elaborate instead of just “grenades feel stinky and I wish my troops didn’t throw their guns on the floor when one went off”. But to put it short- landing one grenade at the moment doesn’t feel rewarding, because anyone can do it. Your ability to get away is entirely dependent on you actively monitoring and watching that unit for the grenade to go off / be thrown. It seems like an overall use of grenades being just to suppress across the board and not actually be grenades. I don’t feel this is gratifying or clever, more than just, a direction grenades have gone for, some reason or other.

      “What you are suggesting is that squads should be able to just eat grenades…” 2 reasons which, I can say are semi poorly written here. 1 they currently serve to be unit disabling pocket MG’s in a canned ability. Essentially, once one is thrown that squad is now disabled by whoever threw it, until the squad stops shooting. It almost feels like SSB and the “trip mechanic” they added in one of their titles where, low skill is rewarded by game mechanics simply aiding them. You don’t have to be a pro to toss a grenade, and playing more than 2 games can easily show you how to dodge them if you eyeball your opponents maneuvers to the grenade.

      “Why am I spending 35 Muni, delaying LMG upgrades or giving up HMG squads so I can *maybe* suppress or damage the target squads” Currently grenades stand at 20 to 35 at most if I’m not mistaken. The biggest grenade being a bundle grenade for 45, and that doesn’t have a 100% chance to immobilize, but can immobilize. It also has a timer, and is very easy to see. Also with grenades being such an important mechanic, there are times where they don’t work at all. Units idle whilst a grenade is being wound up to be thrown, and the grenade just never comes. Or you’re on the receiving end and as-discussed before, squad mates will lag behind because of bad AI path-finding, and they will be pinned, you are now punished for the game bugging out, twice. If you want suppression, you should probably yeah, be investing in an HMG team. Or heavy team in general (Mortars, or otherwise) currently I have yet to see mortars have any use other than barraging static defenses, just due to the fact their “mortar’ is attached to every troop for about 20 munitions.

      <b>”</b>So here we are, back at square one. So you either make a pointless nerf, or make grenades worthless. Thus would bring the meta into any squad that can cast suppression at long distance AKA LMG’s, making those more prevalent than they already are, making gameplay static and boring, unless you want to remove suppression from those too<b>?</b>” Sarcasm brushed aside- LMG’s and munitions as a whole already dominate the game, most games are as I’ve said prior won by who controls the munitions in wikinger. It seems off to me. Fuel is irrelevant yet having munitions means everything. Why build vehicles or cap fuel even, when your opponent can faust, or AT nade whatever you produce? They do a lot. LMG’s can already pin on the move which- Is understandable because at least LMG’s give you a heads up they’re firing before you see them. Your units will at most with LMG’s be light suppressed before they are heavily suppressed, making them incapable of fighting back. This gives you the opponent an option to still crawl away, or even smoke and push up. If LMG’s have a higher usage so be it, it just encourages the use of smoke more and mortars which, seem to currently be neglected overall unless you have satchels or there’s a big static defense or festung defense.

      “Maybe you have 1 squad split-pushing somewhere else, and if that runs into the enemy main push, or you just lose focus? Tough luck. If you look away from your main push,” There are times where this is used later game to make or break something, by using flanking ambushing units to go around a defense and break it from the back, whilst a fake, front push is sent right to the meat grinder only to distract. During times like this, the enemy may completely abandon shooting your front suicide push, to engage your rear flank. Then you can hit them hard from both angles- however one grenade can, once more break all of this. You are rewarded, for clicking a button and having the game glitch out, or having an opponent who wasn’t eyeing down units. Granted- on 100 pop cap game modes you are less likely to be commanding a severe amount of units, however any higher than 100 pop cap means you will almost indefinitely be commanding a large army, it is impossible to control all your units constantly during this. My main point has stood to me that- as stands, grenades punish players who aren’t actively pushing with 1 giant wall. And when players can lay down defenses, specifically to counter gigantic walls, you’re kinda at a stand still.

      “If he nades your solo squad, too bad. It happens. But you are notified when an off screen squad comes under fire, and shooting always predates grenade throws. So…” Almost comparable to Bethesda- the relic engine is held together with duct tape and superglue, with that said- you aren’t always warned “GRENADE!”, taking fire has an icon, but a grenade does not unless the game notifies you one was thrown which has- a small chance to just not happen at all.

      “grammatically incorrect. You see, the word doc plural instead of singular, because only one doc has grenade issues: SID, as mentioned. This is cause by the increased radius of the grenades making them undodgeable. So nerf them. Problem solved.” I mention SID because grenades pinning is a trend I notice across the board. SID fields what is possibly the worst infantry in axis made of wounded veterans or returning units to the front. They aren’t particularly great and they rely off bolt actions. They almost completely need the grenades to compensate for this, however with grenades as is- player punishing because “I hit you once” with a grenade, they are strong. I’ve used SID As a primary case because- SID’s grenades go out of their way to prove to you that grenades just disable and kill at the head due to their range. But hey- I’m not trying to be sarcastic, you can genuinely dodge them as you guys said if you just stare down your opponent throwing the grenade to see the animation. It’s just that, the Splittering grenade has less time to react, if it was thrown and you’ve seen it thrown.

      “As for the accessibility: They really are not as free and spammy as OP would lead one to believe.” I’ve seen many games I’ve been in where it was me, or my opponent playing hot potato. However it was always over big points, When you’re rushing a munitions point, why not throw a grenade? That munitions point could get you an MG team, upgrade you with LMG’s, or let you throw more, and when grenades disable entire squads so reliably, why would you not want to throw that? Almost every game I’ve seen, the prioritization of a portable MG, or just tossing grenades is made. You either invest in something temporary then make it your permanent solution the whole game, or you invest in reliable equipment that goes on forever until the squad is wiped. However grenades do not require a class of unit to be thrown, they just require range, and your enemy not seeing them being thrown, because they’re distracted elsewhere. If you pan your camera mid grenade throw to stop it, you’re doomed. You’re more than likely not going to survive that one, and will have to retreat. It’s not very fair.

      “Grenades are not an anti-blob device. Their radius is not big enough.” This is untrue, yet true. They are used easily to anti-blob because they can completely immobilize and make however many squads incapable of firing, however if you are smart, you can avoid that by simply spreading out and hitting your enemy from multiple angles versus just making all your troops march together. However their range is almost viewable because of the fact that, your units will be pinned sometimes, and the grenade could have landed 1 squads length away in the bushes. Sometimes that hits, sometimes it doesn’t, it doesn’t really make sense.

      “retreat it anyway. Unless you want SMG squads to be able to power through such damage and kill the opposition anyway?” Your SMG’s via my nerf, or default wikinger mechanics will have to retreat regardless. The point was made for more long ranged units to still be applicably used after being naded, at least until you want to retreat them.

      “(considering OP specifically whined about the strength of assault partisans only a few weeks ago, I doubt they would be satisfied with this solution)” Sorry, I know how we fix assault units as a whole- by using your own sarcastic humor here, We just give any unit that upgrades with an SMG AEA. That way they can avoid grenades, HMG’s and mortars unless your opponent is actively vigilant, They are assault squads, so why aren’t they stealthily assaulting after all? This is a joke, Don’t take me for real. I would rather SMG’s stay as is. however they arguably need some changes, but most come with Smoke to deter suppression, so who can complain? They do however “Assault units cannot ignore the hail of fire coming from” is a pretty accurate statement that, I’m almost fine with.

      “One more interaction that this nerf would remove: HMG’s would no longer be pinned,” They currently sit there due to a bug, but that bug is put into the game so fervently it’s almost hard to have known that. However since that bug remains, I will once again have to ignore that point. Until it’s fixed, you won’t have a point to make here, and I’m sorry if that comes off as rude because, it’s just simply the fact that MG’s are going to ignore grenades.

      “One more point OP made that I need to rebut: so you captured both fuel points, but your opponents got both muni points, and beat you, so… what is wrong with that?!” So you got your fuel, this is used to tech, build vehicles, and… That’s pretty much it? It has a dedicated point on the map but no uses, you don’t currently reserve fuel to call in your “Aces”, you don’t currently use fuel to idk, speed your OKW halftracks up, you don’t currently use fuel for anything upgrade wise as far as I’m aware? Most your stuff is coming from munitions, Even on vehicles. HE rounds are bought via munitions. Smoke is bought via munitions, a commander is given munitions, not fuel. Fuel seems to have… No place in wikinger when compared to munitions. And you can’t convert fuel either unless you’re playing a doc that allows that. Even then, one must consider, you make x2 munitions, than you ever do fuel, so why are munitions like they are again? It leads to a lot of spammy encounters. Even building your Anti tank gun as the red army, you must spend about 75 munitions to build a ZiS on one doctrine (It’s name evades me at the moment…) Munitions are so versatile and have so many uses where as fuel seems useless, why capture the fuel point, or even bother? You capture the fuel point just to deny your opponent the resource, only to barely benefit from it yourself due to easily accessed AT options.

      “you will out tech him and win. (What can you buy with muni at tier 1 and 0 vs what can you buy with fuel at tier 1 and 0. ” Rushing tech, maybe. But your opponent can then snowball you using munitions to take more points, get more fuel, etc, etc. Standard points provide more than enough income and depending who you’re up against, you may just skip light vehicles because they’re so, frail. Even against America, why build a Luchs, it can just be 1 shot by a grenade. this is fair in its own but, why invest fuel in something like that? The goggles. You invest fuel, for a mobile tank with goggles. The 2cm hits hard but, it’s just for infantry detection primarily from what I’ve seen, So you’re going to have fuel saved if you skipped it which seems, entirely optional.

      ” “because if you do your job and defend those 2 fuel points you probably overextended to get, he will need to build a fuel cache later. Or lose.” ” This may be possible if you are playing an allied faction however as the more expensive germans who demand more expensive reinforcements, you are less likely to have manpower to freely throw around, though times do come, it’s not as consistent as it is with allies sometimes. That’s not at all- to say that all allies cheaply reinforce, however for example soviets, can just reinforce for what is essentially dirt cheap. This can lead them to do stuff like this on their own game, but as me, especially depending on the map, a cache may not be applicable because of my rapid response to my enemy pushing up more- Armor, Troops, etc, etc.

      “TL;DR Nerfing grenade in the manner described is, to quote OP “silly”. It removes counter play from dug in machine guns (because those were really struggling) , dumbs down the early game to where units with better shooting stats will carry tier 0 (because riflemen, grenadiers and jager were really struggling in the current meta) and creates problem while solving literally none. If you are losing games to early pins due to grenades, you need to become better at throwing your own, or better at reading animations and running away.” I will probably sound like a broken record here however- Machine guns currently have no counterplay in base game so this point is still null and void, Even when inside a building they will not be suppressed HOWEVER they will definitely take more damage- Units with better shooting stats do carry when grenades are done being thrown, US and their semi auto’s can just decimate a lot of axis units due to the fact they shoot faster, they can just be thrown up to your face base game, and a grenade can’t save you if you both dodge it. Grenades as stands feels like a dumbed down version of what they are in vanilla, because it severely simplifies their usage to just “well, you’re suppressed! So piss off!” meaning, the decision to retreat is made for you, regardless if you want to hold out, which may be futile, or just leave the squad there shooting, as a pest. I don’t think changing grenades to be yellow, is going to do all of what you’ve said other than, maybe tossing a grenade back if your opponent is too lazy to move away out of range, after tossing it. However as current game stands, most people will move up just to toss a grenade, then move back to avoid your own rebuttable of a grenade. I hope my opinions don’t anger you towards me as it seems to have done- however I simply feel grenades as stands, are a very enabling mechanic that do not encourage more tactical plays more than just “who can land the grenade” and “did your game bug out and your grenade not throw? Guess youve lost this fight!” “Did your units lag and you got an entire squad pinned? Guess you’ve lost this fight!” Oh also, as for “reading animations and running away” Refer back to prior where I stated- it’s hard to see that when you’re operating more than 7 squads unless you’re blobbed- Also on higher popcap modes you’re less likely to have the reaction time required, so “git gud” Isn’t an argument, sorry.

      “and the suppresion from bolt action rifles would prob be enough too keep you suppressed anyways.” From my experience one must be very close to who they’re shooting to pull this off.

      “now its harder too cover armored vehicles against inf assaults since a grenade just suppresses so they can still use AT abilities, which im NOT in favor of.” Not to say kitty or gamecks didn’t make points- but this is actually pretty valid, You could just make AT abilities disabled if the unit is in yellow suppression, however.

      with this all said- I am grateful for your counter argument because- I would have nothing to build off of, if not for that, and this has been an interesting talk.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Lüng.
      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Lüng.
    • #12284
      Death_Kitty
      Moderator

      FINALLY! A WORTHY OPPONENT! OUR BATTLE WILL BE LEGENDARY! 

      Memes aside, lets continue this. On a personal note, I do not find OP’s opinion to be personally offensive, but it does irritate me that OP cannot see the cascade of issues his proposal causes. I am trying to outline this to the best of my ability

      So 2 points your brought up are this: Fuel being worth so much less that muni, and machine guns already being prevalent. Oh I completely agree with both points. But neither, I believe, are the issue of grenades. They are both separate issues:

      • Fuel is worthless b/c it is very hard to feel fuel starved in the late game; there is simply so much of it. If call-ins were to cost fuel, and certain costs were converted from munitions to fuel at least in part (Like for example, the GA airstrikes from from 250 muni to 150 muni and 75 fuel) it would become a much more necessary resource, without which you would not be able to get your lategame units. That is not the case right now, and I agree with OP; that is an issue. But not one nerfing grenades would fix.
      • LMG’s are prevalent, and I am not saying this is solved by grenades; but nerfing them will certainly make the problem worse. In both his posts, OP describes grenades as a “pocked LMG pin” and for once, I will accept that description: If you throw a grenade and pin and LMG, resulting in its silence, then you can move up and deal with it, or force if off the field. Mortars can also work, but they are much clunkier, and useless if the unit is mobile. They are also random, so there is a good chance that if the first shot misses, an opponent might just move the squad. It takes time for the mortar to pin a target, as oppose to dug in targets, which is what the mortar is meant for, while a grenade is instant. Which is needed to have the momentum to carry on an assault.
      • OP also brought up american AT rifle grenades: Yes, these are broken, and to a limited extent, also the panzer gren AT- rifle grenade upgrade for the fusiliers. This needs to be looked at, but it is a separate issue. The luchs, with tungsten ammo, is actually a super tank. At range, it is a brutal opponent, being able to suppress groups of infantry and do massive damage. With tungsten rounds, it can win 1v1’s with most vehicles (exceptions are the AEC armored car, the valentine, and possibly the T-70 and maybe the puma)

      Your point about the HMG bug: that offends me. My point stands, because bugs never factor into balance discussions. Do your due diligence, document and report them. No need, I have done that already: I have tested all of the HMG teams to make sure they stop firing after being pinned. They will finish their last burst if they are pinned while firing, then they will stop.

      • The vickers (does not shoot wile pinned, but one every so often will shoot out 3 bullets. to my knowledge (i.e. what I observed) these do no damage and are a residual issue of vanilla.)
      • US 30 cal: this one is wierd. a grenade does not actually pin the MG reliably, in addition I had issues with it not re-manning the machine gun after the model manning the MG was killed. Will need to test more.) I’m guessing the suppression resistance of this squad is too high. Does not shoot when pinned though, apart from the vickers issue.
      • US 50 cal: does not fire while pinned.
      • HMG 34 does not shoot while pinned.
      • HMG 42: BUGGED! This one does not stop shooting when pinned. 
      • Maxim: does not shoot while pinned, but has the same mini-burst issue as the vickers. Once again, no damage observed to squad it was targeted at. Also has high pin resistance
      • Dishka: does not fire when pinned, did observe vickers issue.

      What I have observed with HMG squads: they recover from being pinned extremely quickly. A couple of seconds. I have seen them go from pinned to normal again during a hostile squads reload. They also have high pin resistance, meaning it is hard to suppress them with grenades to begin with. The nade has to land by the actual MG.

      So for the most part, my point stands; HMGs do not fire under pin. They do have that mini burst bug, but 3 highly inaccurate shots is not going to pin or damage your squads. They also recover from pin stupidly fast; this may need a nerf. 1 MG firing while pinned out of 7 does not invalidate my point… to the contrary, it reinforces it. I know you are primarily a german player, which would explain why you find it so prevalent. (All relevant screenshots are on my steam profile, should be public)

      Your point about german reinforcements is actually flawed. Expensive reinforcing is not unique to germans, as united kingdom doctrines have expensive reinforcement costs as well, while certain doctrines like IW have the cheapest reinforce cost in the game, while being German (true this requires special micro, so it’s not the best example.) As a rule though, thanks to the StG, and the FG-42 armed luft squads (which I know OP is fond of), these more expensive squads reach their max combat effectiveness well outside grenade range, unlike allied squads, who rely on grenades more to deal with elites. (Which when vetted, will usually suffer suppression from a nade, and not total pin. Not to mention I have thrown smoke nades on a pinned squad, and continued my advance, with the smoke allowing the squad that was pinned to recover and keep moving forward. Counterplay to counterplay.) So again, grenades are something you can mitigate/prevent, more with luft than with other doctrines actually.

      One grenade related nerf I would support is if a squad upgrades to an LMG or rocket launcher/fausts, grenades on that squad are either made much more expensive, or removed entirely. This would prevent them from being able to effectively combat assault squads by throwing a grenade in their path.

      Everything else you mention… I loathe to use the “git gud” argument, because it is an arrogant argument that is just not conducive to good discussion… however, in all the situations you described, it seems like you attention is placed in the wrong location. (why are you not paying attention to you flank, why did you allow him to capture both muni points?)

      You *capturing both fuel and him having both muni points* situation is something I want to discuss more in depth… most maps are situated so that one fuel point is deeper in one persons territory, and they are always (like 95% of maps) positioned on opposite sides of the map, on the edges, while muni points are positioned towards the middle. So, what you are telling me is that he controls the middle of the map, while you have both fuel points in the edges, meaning he can flank you at his leisure. That is over extending. I go for both fuel points, yes but I only try and hold one, as having both at any point in the game gives me even the smallest fuel lead allowing me the tech faster, while holding both requires me to split forces, while he can concentrate them. Sure, if you can hold both fuel points, go for it, but the smart thing for you to do is: build the cache, while he is capturing one of the fuel points, go for the closer muni point.

      Once again, the problem with SID’s grenade is the radius of effect, all grenades are perfectly dodge able. Later in the game, grenades should not be as much of an issue, as you have more stuff, so one nade does not ruin you, and you should be throwing your own nades as well. Dodging nades rewards skill and attention. at tier 1, you should have some sort of LMG, so squads getting out of cover should get pinned before they can throw, or right after. either way, I still don’t consider them an issue.

      Here is a tip if you are really struggling: build a medic. 40 MP is really nothing, and it will allow you do break suppression, retreat a very short distance away, get a burst of healing, and get back to the fight. Give it a shot.

    • #12301
      Death_Kitty
      Moderator

      I’ll be broad with this one. Everything I have said about grenades is about all I can say on the topic. When I say you are fond of luftwaffe, I am not trying to use that against you, more of:

      I think to myself: “I have none of these experiences when playing wikinger. Grenades, to me are a rewarding game mechanic that I enjoy both using, and don’t at all mind being at the receiving end of…Why are his experiences different than mine? Maybe it has to do with the fact we play different docs?”

      I am also a luft player, it is my go-to doc when I play SS. So I was trying to approach the problem from that angle, as when I play luft, once I hit tier 1, grenades become a very minor issue for me, as I feel comfortable microing the various infantry squads, and avoiding grenades, letting the firepower do all the work. You have told me you are fond of luft, hence I am wondering what is different about the way we play it.

      I don’t know you. I have not said a word about your gameplay, b/c I recognize, in addition to being patronizing, I have not seen you play enough to really gage your playstyle. I respond to your hypothetical scenarios with my own tactics/experiences.

      I fume over the HMG bug b/c if grenade lose their pin HMG teams lose that vulnerability. If such a nerf would go through, there would no longer be an early game counter to a well-place MG team until mortars, and even then, mortars take time to solve the problem. If I got outplayed in tier 0, and my opponent is sitting on more/better points than I am, I am going to spend the game trying to break through a wall, and it is frustrating. It is one less item in my toolkit to break through an MG trench/bunker/building. I have to use tactics and strategy, while my opponent just has to face the weapons team the right way. removing pin from grenades would ruin this interaction, and that would bring about gamplay that would just infuriate me, and many other people.

      Grenades are not cheese. They do take action to throw. Like I said, you can dodge grenades. You can throw grenades. They do not require any scouting. You can have squads pinned while your attention is elsewhere. You can pin squads while his attention is elsewhere.

      “A nice tip but something I feel ultimately dwarfs the game play to for everyone, & revolves around cheese. Most cheese found in RTS games can be avoided by just not playing against someone who uses it, but when the game mechanic itself is cheese, how do I avoid players using it? You lessen the punishment of said mechanic, because it has no reason to be as strong as it is. Or you learn to adapt. And the issue I take here is, you only have 2 counters total, and if you don’t like how the counters work, fuck you that’s a part of the mod. See the issue?”

      This. This the big difference between you and me. Have you ever played starcraft? Ever hear of the cannon rush?

      Ill explain it real quick if you have not (skip if you know of this): protoss can build buildings anywhere, as long as it is in pylon range. In addition, protoss can unlock is main base defense, the photon cannon, with only one building, available at thee start of the game: the forge. So the whole point of the cannon rush is to rush a forge, build a pylon at your opponents base before he builds any unit, then kill him with, what should be, base defenses.

      Unless you specifically send a worker… not a unit, a worker, to scout for the forge, you will lose, even in the cannon rush is executed sub-optimally. Once the strat starts, there is no counterplay. if you are not ready, you are done. OFC this generates salt to no end. And you know what? You learn to send the worker. And if it happens you learn to fight with workers, because you dont have units out yet. And rather than whine and nerf the forge to be teched into later, the strat remains. Because it is part of the game. Only 1 counter, and if you don’t want to do it, you can sod off.

      Grenades are so much nicer than that, because once it happens, you can avoid it. and you can perform it right back. I can dodge as soon as the animation starts, sometimes even before (when all models come to a dead stop, I start moving out of the way, don’t even hit sprint). Sometimes, yes, a squad of mine gets pinned. But I pin his squads too. and so long as grenades are an equal opportunity weapon, I am fine with that. (SID nades are not, hence my issue with them)

      So yeah, if you are expecting a perfect game… no, that isnt going to happen. But you can make sure that his game ain’t  perfect either.

       

    • #12312
      Lüng
      Participant

      This is going to be a very basic, long response as compared to prior because I noticed there was only 2 points made, aside from that this website does not save my text when I accidentally went back a page so- that’s 1 or 2 paragraphs of writing gone.

      Quote: Grenades are not cheese. They do take action to throw. Like I said, you can dodge grenades. You can throw grenades. They do not require any scouting. You can have squads pinned while your attention is elsewhere. You can pin squads while his attention is elsewhere.
      Q1-2: I think to myself: “I have none of these experiences when playing wikinger. Grenades, to me are a rewarding game mechanic that I enjoy both using, and don’t at all mind being at the receiving end of…Why are his experiences different than mine?-”

      Response: Grenades are cheese. However they are not, cheese. They are cheesey, built into a mechanic, which is why I dislike them. They cause suppression, which in turn causes you to retreat. I don’t think I’ve ever used a grenade to cause a retreat in any other mod, I use grenades to cause damage. Wikinger grenades don’t do that. They cause damage, and completely disable your troops for little no reason. I have never thrown a grenade to stop an MG from shooting- or rather, I threw a grenade to damage the MG, not cause it to retreat. That’s what you use grenades for, damage. Having their core use, damage. Condensed into retreat mechanic, is just silly. You take away a lot of being able to fight back, a stronger units strengths, and exchange it all for a snowball fight. With how grenades work- you could give my troops sticks, and pistols to fight with, instead of actual weapons, and that’d sum up early game. I don’t need actual troops, I just need a unit that flings grenades all over- because that would sum up early game. As for 1-2, what’s my personal problem if I can dodge them? I feel that- they discourage new players, They’re not fun to be up against when you’re just learning the mod, and they serve to do nothing but limit your gameplay into “well who has the better grenade”, This is why festungs are so powerful. I argue against grenades pinning at the moment because, I have friends who again, love this mod, They love the idea, but they hate the grenades. They think having grenades instantly disable your squads is dumb. And granted, you will probably never see a match where, tier 2-3 is just “hmmm throw grenade”, however you are still likely to see grenades as stands. They are a built in cheese mechanic that I will elaborate on in the starcraft part of the next quotation. Grenades in wikinger seem to serve as nothing but to dumb down fighting into who can throw, who can dodge, who can play. It turns the base game play into a competitive game style that rewards people for eyeing down troops. If you are 2-3 seconds late, you are punished. Meanwhile an MG gives you a heads up by only minorly suppressing you. Grenades have no heads up other than the units shouting grenade which, can just not happen at all. Personally I don’t find them fun, I don’t find them anywhat, interesting. I just find them annoying. They just simplify fights not based off how good the player or troops were, but who knew how to “dodge” and who was quicker to the draw.

      Quote: This. This the big difference between you and me. Have you ever played starcraft? Ever hear of the cannon rush?

      I wrote a nice big paragraph that broke it down and built it up why this doesn’t work, and why this comparison just, isn’t there. But I suppose I’ll have to sloppily grab at what I can- StarCraft 2, encourages that type of gameplay. It is encouraged, rewarded, and even though it’s in the mechanics, its usually decided by the player you’re up against. In competitive leagues, simply again- moving your marine to do a move command, then A move to shoot a zealot behind him, is encouraged. It’s smiled upon, however if I the player just think that’s silly, I just don’t fight people who do that. In wikinger, I can’t avoid this. Grenades aren’t a tactic, they’re a way of life. units acting stupid will not happen, because units come in sizes of 1, My own units can be 5 to 6. The best game you can compare CoH2, to. Is Command and Conquer 3 Tiberium Wars. where, squads are big. Maybe even older command and conquer games. StarCraft is competitive in nature, and enables mechanics to be used how they are. Cheese strats in StarCraft are smiled upon because, thats the nature of the game. CoH2 is not built to be grenade dance simulator because by definition, CoH2 is a less than micro intensive game than StarCraft, hence why it also doesn’t have the player count. Having the gameplay turn into “Well you should dodge better” Is silly, becuase that’s not what CoH2 is designed to do, It’s not designed to be avidly staring at grenades, hence why units lag behind and bad pathfinding can screw you over. StarCraft also has different mechanics in its own like unit health types, armor types, shields…. Probes rushing you with photon cannons is a different story versus CoH2 and its very big squads trying to simulate a “front” akin to WW2. The game is not designed to have grenades do what they are doing, is what I’m trying to say, meanwhile SC2 is. Now, this paragraph is already getting large for just 3 quote at maximum and I have someone waiting on me, who has been for the past 30 minutes, but if you have any other points you’d like to bring up, I’d be more than happy to answer them on who and why, but it’s late, all my prior paragraphs are gone, and I wasted like 1 hour just typing a storm.

    • #12287
      Lüng
      Participant

      I attempted to make a bullet point list however instead of cooperating with me the website instead chose to make me do the goofy format below. So, I have made a Q&A below.

      Quote:
       But neither, I believe, are the issue of grenades.

      Response: The LMG use and fuel use are not in reference of grenades being changed, once more I will elaborate here, I just want grenades to not punish so heavily. They’re essentially rewarding for bugs, or your opponent being elsewhere. I thought that was the point of the HMG where, if you’re not paying attention your troops openly walk into a machine gun blaring bullets at them? Except- in vanilla the MG gives you warning because, it doesn’t suppress you right away, it only lightly suppresses you. The longer you ignore that and waltz into it, the more you’re punished. So, punishing for poor micro / care. However during the light suppression phase, you still have a chance to escape even if you were slow to react. Currently grenades don’t give you a chance just scream “GRENADE!!!” sometimes, and you have to stare down your units / the enemy to make sure no one tosses a grenade at you. There’s no evading that.

      Quote: If you throw a grenade and pin and LMG, resulting in its silence, then you can move up and deal with it, or force if off the field.

      Response: How are you getting that close to MG’s? MG’s cause suppression by default in vanilla, hence why they’re spammed in vanilla. In Wikinger they’re amplified to have a larger cone for some reason, the only time you should get a grenade off into an MG is while it’s still setting up- or just arrived, and is in the process. The likely hood of which depends on the incompetence of who you’re up against, or how aggressive you’re feeling.

      Quote: Mortars can also work, but they are much clunkier, and useless if the unit is mobile. They are also random, so there is a good chance that if the first shot misses, an opponent might just move the squad. It takes time for the mortar to pin a target,-
      Q1-2: -Which is needed to have the momentum to carry on an assault.

      Response: And compare this to the HMG teams which I mentioned earlier. With the mortar, you have a heads up before you have your poor units instantly pinned. The “THWUMP” sound it’s constantly making, and the nearby bombs should be a dead giveaway. Meanwhile with grenades the argument I’ve only heard has been “Get good”, or “Watch for animations” something you can already do, however to evade grenades or know they’re coming, you have no prior warning other than past experiences. They lack a timer, only have a tracer, and when they land you got to play where’s waldo with a grenade to find it- essentially meaning your only alternative route from here is 1: Run away using the sprint option (Your Z key), or 2: Hit the retreat button. As stands, your options to counter a grenade are severely limited. You’re already being damaged half health, if this is the only unit you’re pushing up that side, the flank is lost. But to top it off, you now cannot feasibly defend yourself- or rather your units cannot defend themselves, and you just have to mash the retreat button. Or- you get lucky, escape the grenade. Only to then proceed to do the same thing that just happened to you, to your opponent. Do you see the issue? It’s just goofy, I’m pretty sure WW2 was not fought like this. As for Q1-2, This is pretty reasonable however assaults shouldn’t just be “hehe I threw a grenade now I win” because, that makes assault forces poorly armed festungs from SID, and partisans instead of an actual, assault unit.

      Quote: Your point about the HMG bug: that offends me. My point stands, because bugs never factor into balance discussions.

      Response: I leave LMG’s/HMG’s left alone bug or not because, apparently it took me sizzling about grenades for us to figure out it was a bug, I consider this an easy point to brush aside because- It is still in the game, and active, and no one has reported it prior- I haven’t screen capped this instance because it seemed 100% normal in my case. That by all means is not to say it is fine, or should be allowed, but more so I haven’t known them. My primary point, has been that, shoving MG’s up as a point seems like a very haphazardly made point because it’s seemingly never been bought up until now. That doesn’t mean I’m okay with a bug, nice job spotting what seemed like a normal mechanic to the rest of us- but my point stands, It’s stuck in the game currently and Isn’t a superior issue as you’ve seemingly made it, your point seems more rushed out here, just due to that alone. That fact that as listed above, shows that it works on only… 1/7 Machine guns are bugged, meaning that, we aren’t balancing around bugs anymore, and nor were we. Why you fume over this, I fail to see.

      Quote: Your point about german reinforcements is actually flawed
      Q1-2:
      As a rule though, thanks to the StG, and the FG-42 armed luft squads (which I know OP is fond of)
      Q1-3:
      These more expensive squads reach their max combat effectiveness well outside grenade range, unlike allied squads, who rely on grenades more to deal with elites.
      Q1-4: Which when vetted, will usually suffer suppression from a nade, and not total pin

      Response: Flawed in some ways because reinforcement costs are based off doctrines and sometimes abilities, however for the most part taking a look at troops that I mentioned… Sov, and America I believe? Reinforcement costs are cheaper when the unit is objectively worse- or underhanded. As for 1-2, I don’t think you understand what it means to read into someone. And I mean no offense. But I don’t make use of STG’s at all. I am not super fond of the FG-42 either, however I do appreciate its ability to get the job done, like anyone else. That doesn’t mean every game I play, an FG-42 or StG is my main build priority. So this point lands null once more. I build them because they’re statistically effective, not for a personal fondness. As for 1-3, Not all elites are Long range, not all allies have short range potato-nades like the americans. SS Jagerbond (as annoying, and horrific as they are) are effective med to close, anything else you’re pushing limits. Same with Assault Infantry from Wunderwaffe. I know Wunderwaffe is in a spot of ire, so I won’t elaborate further, but there aren’t many elites that always rely on range. There is a fair chunk, but not every elite is effective at long range- again. 1-4 if you happen to lose a unit prior which is, very possible- because, accidents do happen, and calliopes, katushya’s, and anything else exists, you can easily lose that vet and have to start from the ground up, if it’s late you’re now fighting with close range assault grenadiers ETC again, instead of just having that suppression resistance, which would have been nice.

      Quote: One grenade related nerf I would support is if a squad upgrades to an LMG or rocket launcher/fausts, grenades on that squad are either made much more expensive, or removed entirely.

      Response: An interesting idea that, I don’t actually disagree with, however I dislike the idea of limiting squads. I think the mix-match of grenades as stands is currently enough.

      Quote: why are you not paying attention to you flank, why did you allow him to capture both muni points?

      Response: This doesn’t always happen but it’s always the priority of almost all players in wikinger. Get the munitions, stockpile them, screw over your opponent using the grenades all your units can toss, upgrade your troops with LMG’s, or upgrade your tanks to get superior equipment. Because the whole game relies on munitions. The scenarios I toss to you are not frequent or based off personal experience, more than merely observing, or creating times where, I was the one who took both munitions. And I was the one who won the match because of that.

      Quote: You *capturing both fuel and him having both muni points* situation is something I want to discuss more in depth… most maps are situated so that one fuel point is deeper in one persons territory, and they are always (like 95% of maps)
      Q1-2: So, what you are telling me is that he controls the middle of the map, while you have both fuel points in the edges, meaning he can flank you at his leisure.

      Response: Listen man, I’m not going to sit here and discuss maps and the formation of them, map creators do what they want, but a good map is usually dictated by detail- and how the cover is positions, along with destructible walls, etc. Sight blockers, all that. If you want to dig, most maps do one of the two, the “big” points are next to each other, only separated by 1 standard point in the mid, or the middle corner of a map, or as you said, near the player, but they can be separated by a big standard point that cuts them off. End of story I’m- really not going to elaborate on map design because you’re digging into personal tastes now. as for 1-2, no I am referencing when the muni point are next to the other muni point to make it a constant fight, however a grenade makes someone retreat, now I run a monopoly on munitions and plant mines to be an asshat to my opponent.

      Quote: Once again, the problem with SID’s grenade is the radius of effect
      Q1-2: all grenades are perfectly dodge able.

      Response: SID almost relies off the radius and damage dealt to compensate for their general weakness, Festungs are weak frail boys, and whilst they shouldn’t pin, removing pin from only their grenade sounds just, silly. They’re again- made of returning people to the front, or wounded soldiers. they’re nothing spectacular. 1-2; grenades are not perfectly dodge able. They are feasibly dodge able, possibly dodge able, however there’s no guarantee to escape. Again- it is a heavy micro ability that relies on you to watch the squad moving at nearly all times, or react as you heard grenade shouted by your units. which as I’ve said… Probably 5 times now, sometimes just, doesn’t happen!

      Quote: Here is a tip if you are really struggling: build a medic. 40 MP is really nothing, and it will allow you do break suppression, retreat a very short distance away, get a burst of healing, and get back to the fight. Give it a shot.

      Response: A nice tip but something I feel ultimately dwarfs the game play to for everyone, & revolves around cheese. Most cheese found in RTS games can be avoided by just not playing against someone who uses it, but when the game mechanic itself is cheese, how do I avoid players using it? You lessen the punishment of said mechanic, because it has no reason to be as strong as it is. Or you learn to adapt. And the issue I take here is, you only have 2 counters total, and if you don’t like how the counters work, fuck you that’s a part of the mod. See the issue?

      Due to lack of game play I myself may be rusty, but I’d appreciate if you at least got to know me before making statements like “Yeah I know lung loves his FG-42’s and he always plays luftwaffe” you seem like you’re more eager to use information you learned once against people versus actually knowing said people. That can make literally all the difference, when countering their arguments. And in an argument, no one is ever right, and no one is ever wrong.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Lüng.
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